Should a Divemaster speak up?

[highdesert]

But the instructor with thousands of dives and thousands of students should allow a confrontation from a 60 dive DMC?

IMHO, there is no reason that any instructor, merely by virtue of having thousands of dives and/or students, should be assumed or granted to also have common sense, humility, and the ability to work with others. As a comparison, everyone is familiar with divers possessing advanced certificates (not pointing any fingers here) who are by their nature frickin' idiots, while there are OW divers with 50-100 dives who have their heads screwed on pretty straight. Same principle applies here ... the credentials give someome the right (privilege?) to teach ... it doesn't by default make them good at it.

 

[boulderjohn]

I specifically and purposely used the word "confront" in the context that if I were in a situation where I know that the instructor were to pencil whip a student through a class.

When an instructor does that, he or she had lost all the respects dued to the position.

Well, since the DMC is a student of that instructor who has lost all the respect, then the student should have no concerns about the likelihood that the confrontational tone you admire so much will result in him being kicked out of the class. Once he has lost respect for his instructor, then he should be planning to move on to a different organization anyway.

I have had a friend for the last 15-20 years who has pretty much the same credo as you. When he sees something he doesn't like at his work, by golly, he gets all confrontational and lets them know he won't take it. No sense asking questions or being diplomatic--get right in their face, he says. It feels so good!

I believe that in the time I have known him, he has had 9-10 different jobs. Maybe more--I don't see too much of him these days. He is presently unemployed. His wife left him 5 years ago because of his inability to hold a job. Probably just a coincidence.

 

[diver 85]

short answer(s) to your original Q:---DM, yes--DMC, yes.....

How would your son feel IF the 'poor student' died/ had a MAJOR problem within his/her 1st few dives after OW cert....--@ least he could say "I tried to warn 'em"....

 

[Jeff Toorish]

This is a potential learning experience for your son. In the form of a question, I would have asked the instructor about the student --maybe by focusing on another more proficient student first.

Somethign along the lines of...

"Bill looks pretty good, I think he's going to be a strong diver. What are your thoughts on Ted, it looked like he was finding diving more challenging?"

That way, if the instructor cuts off the discussion on Ted, it's pretty clear there is nothing much you can do about the instructors decision to certify him. But If the discussion opens up, there may be information your son did not know.

As an instructor, I would welcome a DM or a DM Candidate asking me my thoughts about a student.

Jeff

 

[seaducer]

I specifically and purposely used the word "confront" in the context that if I were in a situation where I know that the instructor were to pencil whip a student through a class.

When an instructor does that, he or she had lost all the respects dued to the position.

In the context of both the OP and your debate with instructors, the discussion is involving a dive master candidate. A DMC is in the process of learning how to evaluate student divers, and as such is not ever in a position to know that an instructor is "pencil whipping" someone through the OW course.

As such "confrontations" are inappropriate and counter productive to the OW students, the DM student(s), and the instructor.

Further more, while DM level divers are professionals, (as opposed to candidates, who are not) and deserve all the respect and rights deserving of the title "dive professional", from non pros and fellow pros alike, I am not aware of any agency that, in the context of educating students, ranks a DM at the same level as an instructor. It would be better if the DM understood that they may not have the same toolbox as the instructor when it comes to evaluating students, and approach the instructor in a manner that would invite a conversation, as opposed to a confrontation.

Should a DM or DMC bring concerns and observations to the instructor? Absolutely, that is one of their functions in class.

Should an instructor listen to those concerns and observations? Absolutely, that is why a DM is there.

Should an instructor solicit advice and assistance from the DM? I should think the fact that the DM is present answers this in the affirmitive.

Should the instructor heed said advice? That depends on the situation, including but not limited to whether the DM was in a better position to observe or communicate with the student(s) in question, and whether the DM is making sound advice and is competent in the discharge of their position.

Should the DM confront the instructor? Depends on the size of the DM's ego, I suppose.

YMMV

 

[fnfalman]

In the context of both the OP and your debate with instructors, the discussion is involving a dive master candidate. A DMC is in the process of learning how to evaluate student divers, and as such is not ever in a position to know that an instructor is "pencil whipping" someone through the OW course.

So, unless one is an "instructor", one cannot make an evaluation of a student diver's skill level?

Should the DM confront the instructor? Depends on the size of the DM's ego, I suppose.

YMMV

Should the DM or DMC confront the instructor? Depends on the isntructor's competency and ethics.

If I were a DMC and I know that an instructor is passing someone whose skills are not up to par and is a danger to his or herself, I wouldn't hesitate to "confront" the instructor. Hopefully the shop wouldn't just throw me in the OW checkout dive without knowing the students and the instructor so that I'd have the chance to talk with the instructor on the side. But ethics would compel me to "confront" anybody who purposely shortchange a student and thus exposing him or her to unnecessary danger.

 

[boulderjohn]

So, unless one is an "instructor", one cannot make an evaluation of a student diver's skill level?

Officially? No you can't.

As I said earlier, divers in the beginning levels of professional training are learning, step by step, how to evaluate a student's skill.

1. The first step is the DMC, the level of the person in the story. This is an entry level person who has had no real training in this and his observing instruction for the first time. His only job is to observe instruction. He has no authority to do anything else in a class.
2. The next level is the DM. The DM has supposedly learned enough as a DMC to have a sense of what good skills look like, enough to do a reasonable enough job in demonstrating to be able to help a student. The DM is not allowed to evaluate independently. In a class, the DM's main job is to watch the rest of the class to make sure everyone is OK while the instructor focuses on specific students.
3. The next level is assistant instructor. During the training for this position, the DM is taught the theory of instruction and evaluation and does some role playing . The Assistant instructor must show a superior level of skill to the DM, but it not supposed to evaluate skills independently.
4. The training for the instructor level is primarily on demonstration and evaluation. They learn how to manage a class to avoid dangerous situations. They are themselves evaluated throughout their training on their ability to evaluate students, and they are finally tested on this by an independent examiner before they are given the authority to evaluate students and confer certification.

When I started as a DMC, I thought I knew all there was to know about diving. I was pretty darn high on myself, but the DMC course brought crushing reality to me. The DMC-DM-AI-Instructor path took me about three years, during which time I watched one instructor after another, slowly getting a firm sense of what was acceptable and what was not. I learned what worked in instruction and what did not. It was a very valuable process, and I am glad I took the slow and deliberate route.

As I suggested earlier, if I had seen something that did not make sense to me in terms of instruction, I would have politely asked the instructor teaching me for an explanation. If the reply troubled me, I would have re-evaluated my plans for instruction. I think it would have been the height of arrogance for me, in the first days of the long path to the instructor role, to confront my own instructor and tell him off without first asking him to explain his thinking first.

 

[Diver0001]

the credentials give someome the right (privilege?) to teach ... it doesn't by default make them good at it.

Very true. Not all instructors are particularly good at it. Some even "pass" students who are beyond what I would personally consider marginal. Part of why this happens has to do with how we decide if a skill is good enough. We use something we call "mastery" in order to decide if a skill is being performed well enough or not.

Put simply, a skill is considered to be mastered if it can be performed repeatedly and fluidly for a student *at that level*.....

now... "repeatedly" is easy to understand but what does "fluidly at that level" mean? It means that the instructor's judgement is the deciding factor. The instructor's judgement is "calibrated" (nod to BoulderJohn) by seeing a large number of people doing that skill both satisfactorily and unsatisfactorily whereby over time, they develop a good sense of what's good enough and what isn't.

In some cases, instructors' sense of what is good enough starts to slip and it can slip both ways. Some instructors may pass a student, for example, if they can hardly control their buoyancy at all and others may "fail" them if they so much as scull a bit with their hands.... both of those can become problematic.

That may have been the case here but it may also be the case that the expectations of the DMC (who is not "calibrated" at all yet) of the OW student were unrealistic. For example, the OP mentioned that the student (if I read it right) was sculling with their hands and in the process hit someone else. However, this *same* student may have consistently (repeatedly) shown adequate control (fluidly for his level) of repositioning himself in the water throughout all of their other dives. Instructors do not generally "fail" OW students who show good control throughout the course because of a blooper or a single moment where they lose their balance or whatever. What we look for on this kind of skill is a consistent pattern of control, not a consistent pattern of perfection.

One of the reasons I haven't checked into this thread with an opinion about how the student looked is because I simply cannot tell by what the OP wrote what the student REALLY looked like in the water. I'll admit, I see some things in the first post that would be warning signs to me, but we don't know how the student was controlling his position in the water throughout the rest of the course apart from the things he saw during the dive in question.

It's quite possible that I would agree that the student wasn't ready but it's also possible that the OP saw something that was not "in character" for that particular student. We (at least *I*) certainly can't make that judgement by reading this thread. I would have to see the student for myself.

R..

 

[Scuba.com]

When I am training a Divemaster and they are to the point in the course that I am allowing them to observe and assist somewhat with a class, I not only rely on their observations and iniative in bringing it up, but I expect it.

First off, another opinion and point of view can often help. Perhaps my DM candidate noticed it while observing the person as I was having another person perform a skill for me, for example. Another set of eyes, no matter how good an instructor you think you are, is never a negative thing. I am trained to observe my students and thier behaviour, as we all know there is no way you can see 100% of everything, 100% of the time.

And while I am responsible for the class I am teaching at the time, the DM candidate is also a student who is supposed to be learning and demonstrating skills that I am equally responsible for as well. Their observations and iniative are a very important barometer for me as to where they are in their training. Divemasters who are unable or unwilling to perform this are not yet ready to be certified and need more experience and education. To me, a divemaster or divemaster candidate has never been a source of "cheap labor" and I never expect them to sit back and enjoy the dive. Nor can I gauge an area they may need to work on if they do not bring their observations to my attention if for no other reason than to discuss them, if not allow them to assist with some extra practice for the openwater student.

Remember, the Divemaster is the first level of scuba professional who is able to purchase their own insurance and is employable to take certified divers on tours and supervise diving activities. Most resorts hire instructors because they can get double the possibility out of one person, BUT, the DM is employable by them. When training a DM you must always train them for the most extreme use of their certification level, as they won't necessarily always have an instructor in the water with them to take responsibility. It is essential to them that they are able to recognize issues with divers and be able to offer advice and assistance to them.

So yes, if the divemaster candidate observing/assisting with a class notices something that he/she feels should be brought to the instructor's attention, no matter what it is, then by all means do so.