Should a Divemaster speak up?

[Diver0001]

But the instructor with thousands of dives and thousands of students should allow a confrontation from a 60 dive DMC?

..... snip ..... The original post was that a DMC SHOULD have confronted an instructor while he was going through his DMC class.

Al, you're getting hung up on semantics of a word that the OP never used. The op asked if the DMC should have "spoken up". It wasn't until later that someone ....checking.... oh it was guy who is trolling you.... used the word "confront".

I think the OP had a good question. Should DMC's speak their minds?

Answer: unequivocally, YES.

If nothing else the process of discussing it will be good for helping the DMC build a framework/context (BoulderJohn called it "calibrating")

Lots of bad instructors out there along with lousy DM's and lousy divers. As I said before interrupting the learning process is not the way to go. I never said to be quiet forever, just in front of the open water students. If you don 't get that Mr I have 100 dives then I give up.

The OP also never mentioned anything about 'interrupting' the instructor or disrupting the lesson. I agree with you that it should be done discretely while students are not around but even instructors who value the DM's input have said this. There's really no discussion about it, when the lesson is on, everyone is focused on the task. After the students go home then the "speaking up" can take place. There is only one person in this thread who has said otherwise (IIRC) and he's just busy pressing your button.

R..

 

[Jim Lapenta]

He did not ask if his son should have confronted the instructor. He asked if his son should have spoke up. Never said when. As a DMC under those circumstances he should indeed have said something to the instructor. Not in front of the student granted but during the Instructor/Assistants debrief. It would be a more than fair question to ask why the student was passed when he/she seemed to not have a good grasp on the basics. It would also be a great opportunity for the DMC to get their own standards manual, read and study it, then go to the instructor and ask if he had any questions based on his reading of the manual. The instructor could make this a great teaching moment or blow him off. Then it's time to find another instructor and /or make the call to the Quality Dept if it seems the instructor did violate standards and get the skinny from the horses mouth so to speak.

 

[boggyman]

I have been a Divemaster for over two years and you will see students with different levels of skill in the water. You need to make the Instructor aware of the issues you see with the students, If he is aware and is not taking action to work with the student or asking you to work with the student then he's not a very good Instructor. Remember that Diving is a sport that has risk and If there is a mistake it can cost lives. It can and will take alot of money to make your case in court.

 

[Dhboner]

But the instructor with thousands of dives and thousands of students should allow a confrontation from a 60 dive DMC?

You have gone so far overboard here. The original post was that a DMC SHOULD have confronted an instructor while he was going through his DMC class.

That sir is laughable and no way to become a DM.

Lots of bad instructors out there along with lousy DM's and lousy divers. As I said before interrupting the learning process is not the way to go. I never said to be quiet forever, just in front of the open water students. If you don 't get that Mr I have 100 dives then I give up.

A) How did you conclude my son has "60 dives"?

B) I never used the word "confront".

I welcome the feedback here (that's why I started the thread) but do me the courtesy of reading what I write before beginning the tirade.

 

[fnfalman]

But the instructor with thousands of dives and thousands of students should allow a confrontation from a 60 dive DMC?

You have gone so far overboard here. The original post was that a DMC SHOULD have confronted an instructor while he was going through his DMC class.

That sir is laughable and no way to become a DM.

Lots of bad instructors out there along with lousy DM's and lousy divers. As I said before interrupting the learning process is not the way to go. I never said to be quiet forever, just in front of the open water students. If you don 't get that Mr I have 100 dives then I give up.

What about a 500-dives DM candidate? Or a 2000-dives DM candidate? Would the thousands-of-dives instructor listen then? Or because that the instructor had logged thousands of dives and trained hundreds of students somehow became inur to learning new things or became infallible?

BTW, I have 170-dives as of yesterday. Not 100-dives. I know, ooooh, big whoopdedoo, right?

Guess what? Right back at ya, Mr. I Have A Thousand Dives. If you're that badass of a diver then whenever there's a cave or a wreck that needs to be explored people would have invited you instead of Jarrod Jablonski or Lamar Hires.

There's more than one way of becoming a DM and one of the ways to do it is to get with a good shop that has good, ETHICAL instructors instead of a bunch of petty tyrants who think that they're gods of diving.

 

[Teamcasa]

...I'm curious to hear from more experienced divemasters and even instructors on this subject. Should a divemaster speak up if he/she thinks the instructor is "going through the motions" and passing everyone.

Yes, the DM should talk to the instructor. Once the instructor explains his decision and why, it may all make sense. If the instructor refuses to explain himself, well, you also have an answer - find a new instructor.

 

[fnfalman]

I have been a Divemaster for over two years and you will see students with different levels of skill in the water. You need to make the Instructor aware of the issues you see with the students, If he is aware and is not taking action to work with the student or asking you to work with the student then he's not a very good Instructor. Remember that Diving is a sport that has risk and If there is a mistake it can cost lives. It can and will take alot of money to make your case in court.

You don't have more than a thousand dives and you're only a DM? You have no say-so about how an instructor does his or her job. If you see a student struggling and possibly freaking out? Keep your yap shut because your pissant opinion/advice are neither warranted nor needed while the BIG BAD INSTRUCTOR WITH AN INSTRUCTOR CARD is there to take care of business.

You should go carry a float or fill a tank or whatever that you pissant DMs do and let the BIG BAD INSTRUCTORS get on with the business of turning out real divers.

 

[James R]

I don't get why so many people are so "you only have xx" dives so your opinion doesn't mean as much as mine. Maybe they have small...tanks...and are looking for some sort of validation that their...tanks...are as big or bigger than the...tanks...everyone else dives with.

I started diving in 1991, well before the Internet and ego-inflating message boards. You never saw so many pissing contests back then; people just went diving and enjoyed it. Sometimes the Internet is such a drag.

 

[seaducer]

You don't have more than a thousand dives and you're only a DM? You have no say-so about how an instructor does his or her job. If you see a student struggling and possibly freaking out? Keep your yap shut because your pissant opinion/advice are neither warranted nor needed while the BIG BAD INSTRUCTOR WITH AN INSTRUCTOR CARD is there to take care of business.

You should go carry a float or fill a tank or whatever that you pissant DMs do and let the BIG BAD INSTRUCTORS get on with the business of turning out real divers.

You might want to keep that strawman away from any open flames. What you are arguing about has no resemblance to the OP and the instructors who are calling you out are right in the spirit of your posts. FWIW Al and the rest never said they do not value the input of their DM/DMC/AI, just not in a confrontational tone.

 

[fnfalman]

You might want to keep that strawman away from any open flames. What you are arguing about has no resemblance to the OP and the instructors who are calling you out are right in the spirit of your posts. FWIW Al and the rest never said they do not value the input of their DM/DMC/AI, just not in a confrontational tone.

I specifically and purposely used the word "confront" in the context that if I were in a situation where I know that the instructor were to pencil whip a student through a class.

When an instructor does that, he or she had lost all the respects dued to the position.