Sexism?

[ams511]

I remember early feminism as a movement that was as actively suppressed and reviled as the movement against racial discrimination. It was usually the same kind of people who opposed both movements- political Neanderthals, not to put too fine a point on it.

Bra-burning was a very limited activity, something engaged in by a tiny number of people, mostly for publicity. It was about as common as anti-war vets throwing their medals on the steps of the Pentagon. I was an anti-war vet, but I still have all my stuff. Describing bra burners as typical feminists is simple ignorance, the kind encouraged by the media of the day. Pure stupidity.

Sex has never been freer than it is now. Spending as much time on college campuses as I do, I can absolutely assure you of that. Anyone who thinks early feminists were free love advocates just was not around back then.

That some people live longer than others should not affect social security. Blacks have a lower life expectancy than whites. Should they get full benefits earlier?

Should health benefits for people with conditions like diabetes be restricted or made more expensive? Insurance company executives might agree, but certainly no civilized human.

Women have children This fact of nature and biology creates its own health vulnerabilities. Should the men who impregnate these health care expensive women share the higher rates you suggest? Men cannot get pregnant (yet) but they are an indispensable part of that expensive process (so far). Little kids, especially preemies, have high health costs. High education costs, too. I suppose single men with vasectomies should have special tax exemptions. Gay men too, now that HIV is no longer a mostly gay men's disease.

Men are immune from the tendency to hire other men? Really?

Think before you touch a single finger to your keyboard.

I do think before I touch the keyboard but unlike you I use my brain not a bleeding heart. Your logic in not internally consistent.

I agree with you that men who impregnate women should share in higher rates, however this is not what is being done. What is being done is men are being forced to pay for the higher cost of female healthcare. If a man is neither married to the woman nor impregnated her then why should he pay for her healthcare? If woman live longer then why are we spending all this money on women's health issues? Shouldn't we be spending the money on men's health issues because men don't live as long? Where is the movement to try to equalize life expectancy among the genders?

At 51, I don't expect to pay the same for health or life insurance as a 21 year old. This makes no sense because statistically I have more of a chance becoming ill or dying than someone 30 years younger. It is also a fact of nature that the old are more vulnerable. Why should this person need to subsidize my health insurance? Especially being I probably make more than he does. You can vilify insurance executives but their job is to make sure that a plan has money available to pay claims when they are due. In order to do this they need to make sure the calculations are statistically sound not politically correct.

As far as African-Americans having a lower life expectancy, I know of no study controlling for all factors related to life expectancy that indicates race makes a difference. However, it is a universal fact that woman live longer than men even when controlling for differences.

When I worked in industry I never once saw an incidence of gender discrimination. My employers were only to happy to find a competent, conscientious, employee regardless of gender (or race). In education, I do see discrimination against men.

Judging from your responses I don't think you are a feminist but rather a socialist.

 

[stevegd]

Yes I agree, especially with the "handle your gear" part. As any dive should know how to set up and use all the gear they have with them. As for helping someone into and out of gear, I help guys all the time because they cant seem to get their arms out of and into their BCD's.

 

[drrich2]

Recently, some Scuba Diving Equipment companies have made wetsuits with Pink flowers for women. They are meant to fit better on womens' bodies.

Now, I don't mind wearing a pink wetsuit with flowers. But I know that some other women will feel like that it's unfair that the ONLY available wetsuit for women is pink and full of flowers.

Had this thread in mind when I recently got an e-mail about the new Bare Nixie line for women. So women do have options, including 'not pink.'

Otherwise, my point remains. Companies seemingly can't win. If you just make gear in the style for men, you're ignoring women's needs. If you make gear to appeal to women, you're stereotyping. If you ask what women want, you don't get a simple, straight-forward actionable answer for a low-volume, likely low-margin product line.

Richard.

 

[chillyinCanada]

I know women who want pink gear. My current wetsuit has some pink on the arms. I didn't necessarily want that but it was my size and had a few other features I wanted. I'm quite taken with the Nixie, unfortunately for me it's missing a feature I like to have (ankle zips ).

Then I saw the Bare Reactive or is it Reaction? Whatever . . . I decided I must have one. But no, they are only made for men.so this is interesting.

Oh, and does anybody want my original Sherwood pink fins?

 

[Mustard Dave]

I blame PADI. Have you seen all the colours in their training videos? It's like a Neff 80's roller-disco!

 

[mselenaous]

As a follow up, here is a link to Jill Heinerth'a article where this thread is quoted.

Sexism: Alive and well in scuba diving | DIVER magazine

Excellent article.

Yes I've experienced this in employment in this industry in more then 1 job.
Nice to know I'm in the 13% that made it to Master Instructor.

 

[drrich2]

Sexism is a complex product of a society, both female and male membership. It's not simply something men do to women. The article is interesting, but hardly has a middle ground feel to it. Consider:

...in the end, I reasoned, my mission was to simply represent the facts and attempt to write an article that validated women’s issues,...

Generally, the expectation is that a woman will be the primary caregiver at home making sacrifices through years of raising children.

Um, that same traditional 50's family type American family, the sort this seems to refer to, also had the expectation the man would essentially be cast out of the home for 40 to well in excess of that hours per week, shoulder the full responsibility for the family's financial well-being, and in the event of a draft, bear the burden of being sent off war & possibly death involuntarily.

Yes, traditional society has been very sexist. There are been restrictions on women. But that's part of the story, not the whole story, and I've seen that some women enforce stereotypical expectations of their own gender upon others.

Men have ruled the planet for the past five million years.

Ahem. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. Men, too, have been constrained by gender-based role expectations & requirements.

Yet in the United States today, women still do not receive equal pay for equal work, and are less likely to be promoted.

Sounds awful at face value. But historically when I've seen articles on it, finding true examples of equal work can be dicey. Amongst Physicians, for example, the workforce habits of the genders vary. Who's more likely to work part-time vs. overtime? And beyond that profession, who's more likely to actively campaign/self-promote for advancement? There's more to it than grabbing everybody's W2's from last year & comparing the gross incomes.

And how often do we hear about women spending more time at home with their children as an unfair sexist reality discriminating against men?

Using competitive professional sports with paid endorsements as a comparator at 1st seemed odd for a non-competitive amateur (mostly) hobby. Later she discussed the professional side, which made it more understandable/relevant.

When a male poster expressed the sentiment she came across as full of herself, a couple of her comments:

I wondered: if the same earned credentials from my resume had been attached to a male persona, would this poster have written the same comments? If there was one thing I learned from Marjorie Bank it was to stand up and be proud of my accomplishments and hard earned credentials.

This can be a problem when criticizing a woman or some minorities; that suspicion that you might be acting sexist, even if you are not.

So, I brushed these comments off but not without first noting that the male poster had responded to my inquiry in a ‘women only’ thread on an Internet forum.

Did she only want female feedback/viewpoints? If so, why?

The earliest diving equipment catalogs depicted brave hardhat divers exploring the ocean while sexy, bikini-clad women water-skied above them. Over the years, the industry has trended slowly towards more gender-friendly marketing, but there has been plenty of skin.

Here's a thought; ignore the ads marketing a product toward a different demographic than you. If you're a woman, scantily clad beautiful woman models probably aren't chosen to market to you. Do what the men do; channel your dollars toward what you want to see. If enough women do this, it will shape a market for them.

Despite all that, she wrote a good deal about matters that appear legitimate, unjust & very concerning. Unfortunately, some of her assertions may be off-putting to some of the very people it might serve her mission to win over.

Richard.

 

[Littlerayray]

As a male in a dive club that is split about 50/50 male female there is an unwritten rule that no one touches another person's gear and you only help if asked and most people get angry at a noob who touches another person's gear we only help if help is asked it also makes people unashamed to ask for help when it's needed and the men are more willing to ask for help then the women are they almost feel like they have to prove they can do everything themselves rather then ask for help

 

[shoredivr]

Good article, Jill Heinerth.

 

[DebbyDiver]

No, I have not read the other many pages in this topic. Starting fresh.

I saw Elena's sharing of Jill's article today on Facebook as Elena's a dear friend. I made many replies to Elena and she invited me to post them here. Here goes!

Going to read it in a moment but having great memories of becoming a NAUI instructor back in 1982...one of only three female instructors in SoFla (the other two were PADI)...one thing great was that because all of the guys wanted their mom/wife/daughter/girlfriend/etc. taught by a female, I worked night and day and bought a new Camaro and a new condo from my dive instructor earnings. Norine Rouse gave a lecture during my ITC (I was the only woman of course) and took me aside and cheered me on, saying she was only the second female NAUI instructor and that I'd do great. I'm going to read the article now that I've reminisced, but the only sexist thing I remember is pretty funny. I worked fulltime in a dive shop in addition to teaching full time (yes 7 days a week night and day). Filling tanks made me very buff and I had very firm arms (and a very cute now ex-husband). A man came into the dive shop and looked at my buff arms shown off in a tank top and said "no man likes a woman with muscular arms." I replied, "only REAL men like women with muscular arms". LOL OK off to read the article.

For anyone who cares, my NAUI number is 7188.

Forgot to add that I was nominated "Outstanding Candidate" in my otherwise all-male ITC. Why? The rescue day. All of the other candidates muscled their "victims" onto the boat before commencing CPR. I was different. I hollered to the people on the boat "HELP, get this man on the boat so I can start CPR!" and THEY did the heavy lifting and then I commenced fake CPR. Some of us use brains rather than brawn. Another PS, my assistant course director is a very famous cave diver named Jeff...anyone care to guess his surname?

As I'm reading it, I have to recall that of the three female scuba instructors in Broward in the early 1980s...one was an incredibly sexy woman who wore minimal bathing suits and was dating (and later married) a now-deceased famous u/w photographer. One was a lesbian. I was the third, a chubby married woman (with great arms lol). I'm still in touch with the first, she is now a professional with a doctorate, married to a non-diver. I don't know what happened to the other.

Sorry, things are just flooding back and I know I'm commenting a lot. An interesting thing is that as a female with an instructor cert, I can walk into most dive shops in the USA and the Caribbean and be offered a job ON THE SPOT because I am...a woman. I worked for a dive shop in the USVI (just in the shop) and they were always after me to teach, but I was still recovering from a bicycling injury and declined. The only dive shop (at the time) in Hilo, HI actually wined and dined me to try to get me to teach for them, because I was a woman, and I still declined, same reason, bum knee from bicycle crash, I didn't feel strong enough to teach/rescue.

Is the industry sexist now? I simply don't know. Things were different back when I was a full-timer (I like to say back when sex was safe and diving was dangerous). I felt very respected back in the day. I felt that I was judged on my abilities and not by my female attributes. I was married to #2 when I was instructing and I don't know if this had an effect on how I was treated. I want to add that even though I am now a senior citizen, I still feel very respected when I am the customer. There is a big level of respect toward people who have been diving for multiple decades. I love this industry and I love the sport, and I weep that my professional diver female friends have to suffer indignities.

p.s. a "perk" of being a former underwater instructor is that I was invited to be a lifeguard in a Florida freshwater spring, the only freshwater spring in the National Forest where SCUBA is allowed. Did the gig this year and invited back for 2016. Come visit me...we frequently have mermaids!

For old friends, I'm sorry I have not been as active here as I used to be. First I moved to the USVI and then Hawai'i a few years ago, now I am a full-time RVer, all of those circumstances = limited data and bandwidth. I happen to be very blessed by wired internet until about Christmas eve, so I look forward to replies on this topic!

Thank you, Elena! MWAH! Miss you...will be back in Florida 2016 and HAVE TO dive with you!