SB (extended) weekend

[fgray1]

OK. How about the thirds rule. And the 3 light rule. Not going in but 400 ft. won't need that third light. Lets not place arrows either because I know the way to the exit. And of course let not stay with arms length of the gold line in unfarmiliar area .No need I know I won't loose vis. Don't need to do that 1' gap either cause I can see both lines. No need to do s drills or bubble checks either. I've read the horror stories about the guys 50' from the entrance and couldn't find their way out.
My point being if you follow your training and form good habits you stand a better chance of nothing going wrong.
You guys are advicating bending and breaking the basic rules.
They are there for a reason. Peacock is a big point of discussion right now because the lines run so far up. When some open water diver follows them in and dies that's when they will move them back again. I understand they are having problems with the cross lines but there has to be a better answer. Just because a grooup of people decide to change something doesn't mean you toss your training out the window.
Ben I don't mean to upset you. I just don't get why you would'nt follow your training when it's such a simple thing.
No one plans on messing up, as a wise man once said. SH*T HAPPENS.
You guys can dive how ever you see fit. Didn't mean to make you all upset.
Good luck in your diving adventures.
Fred

 

[DEEPSEAWOLF]

When Gator and I were prepping to dive on Monday, I opened my dive box... and found my canvas hat that had been dropped in the spring at Crystal River two weeks earlier. OOPS missed that! It was interesting to see how many diferent colors and shapes mold grows in. I think I'll consider this my dunce cap... WHO WANTS TO WEAR IT?!
As a novice diver I will say this. We each have our own methods of learning and becoming better divers, either through training or pushing our limits. I am paranoid about training in an environment that I was not designed to live in permanently. Had God given me gills, I would love to dive without gear and diregard air tables. As long as nobody gets ME killed, I'm happy, including MYSELF. I also desire to be an independent buddy who can control any situation through training and experience, both of which I have very little! I do as trained, and learn more each time. However some times, even an experienced diver pushes limits. We all do, otherwise half of us would never have done an ocean dive as we are not TRAINED for it. Better to be trained for something and make your own choice of its usage, than to attempt something we know nothing about and are not trained for. I won't go beyond the upper tie down point for Ginnie ballroom because I don't feel secure enough as a diver, and have not been trained to do so. I've been trained to that point, so I go to THAT point. The urge to go further is almost overwhelming, but I know what my limits are and love my family. To each their own. It's good to see so many opinions, but basically, it can only be said... GOOD LUCK on every dive. Even the best trained, doing everything textbook have died in the process. If I return home to see my family and had fun on the dive, it was a great dive.
Even blowing two hundred bucks on a checkout trip to West Palm where I never even got my BC on my back. It sucked, but I was outside my limits, knew it and went home to my family. I still had a great time and fed some fish.

 

[OneBrightGator]

The point is, I don't break rules. I follow thirds, I carry three lights, I drop markers, I stay close to the line, I follow my training and apply it to every dive I make. We ran a line into P3 MAYBE 30 feet, looked around and came out, we could have easily done the dive without a reel, but we choose, correctly, to use one.

The lines at Peacock start in the correct place, there is no space to run them way out into OW like you can at OG, from where both lines end you could reach from the end of the line to the wall then follow the wall up.

I realize you're not trying to offend me, but so far you've compared me with someone who makes poor decisions and dives outside his training and suggested I make decisions which compromise both my safety and my buddy's without ever diving with me, or even meeting me.

Ben

 

[fgray1]

I was using an extreme case to make my point. He didn't follow his basic training rules and he paid the ulimate price.
See I carry things to worst case. Maybe because I'm closer to meeting my maker than you are. Who knows. Maybe because it's been drilled in my head over the years. I always op on the side of being to careful. It drives some people crazy. Besides If you do get lost or hurt then how are we ever going to dive together. Even if by the time we do you'll have to carry me to the water and throw me in. :22:
Fred

 

[OneBrightGator]

Trust me, I have no intentions of kicking the bucket anytime soon, to many caves left unseen, you can rest assured I follow all proper protocol and conduct my dives in the safest manner possible until I reach the point of diminishing return.

Ben

 

[Wendy]

Ok I keep reading about not wanting the line run to ow in P1 to keep the ow divers out, but open water divers can't dive at Peacock Springs State Park except for Orange Grove and they must be with an instructor then.

I have not yet seen the mainline changes in P1.

Fred, where would you suggest Ben to run a reel from to tie off to the mainline? There is no place in the ow area at P1 to do so, and then line is right by the tree (from what I've been told) to where folks used to tie off. Should he have tied off to the ladder? The stairs? I'm not taking sides here, but I think if you are going to disagree with how someone did something, that you should suggest how it should have been done, where to tie off. And also I don't think it was right to comepare Ben to the diver at Crystal River.

 

[Robinhood]

Ok I keep reading about not wanting the line run to ow in P1 to keep the ow divers out, but open water divers can't dive at Peacock Springs State Park except for Orange Grove and they must be with an instructor then.

I have not yet seen the mainline changes in P1.

Fred, where would you suggest Ben to run a reel from to tie off to the mainline? There is no place in the ow area at P1 to do so, and then line is right by the tree (from what I've been told) to where folks used to tie off. Should he have tied off to the ladder? The stairs? I'm not taking sides here, but I think if you are going to disagree with how someone did something, that you should suggest how it should have been done, where to tie off. And also I don't think it was right to comepare Ben to the diver at Crystal River.

I know that OW divers aren't supposed to be there without an instructor, but they tend to find the springs nonetheless. As a matter of fact, I was at Peacock and saw an older gentlemen with scuba gear looking for a buddy. Okay, no harm in that you say! He was wearing a jacket style bc and the ultimate OW 'giveaway'...he had a snorkel. Not to mention his very bright wetsuit, fins etc! (Yeah I know...some of you out there like wearing the bright stuff! I'm not giving up any names!) He was asking us about the cavern/cave etc (seemed like he wanted one of us to buddy up with him), but we really didn't provide any info and we made sure he never got in the water with his scuba gear. So, the question is: What happened if he found a buddy and/or decided to go solo. The line is in very plain view and one with an 'explorer' type attitue, the line one helluva a temptation!
Not to change the thread here, but I just wanted to comment about some of the discussion regarding the placement of the mainline and your (Wendy) comments regarding OW divers not allowed in the springs.

 

[simbrooks]

But also, surely even if you couldnt see the line, how many people who are untrained would go in if they could for the adventure? Sneak in lights, just go and "have a poke around". I know i have been in my fair share of "OW safe" caverns so far with a buddy, i am not sure how many in FL (and other place) havent done that before they got the appropriate training to dive in "non OW safe" caverns - it is according to the owners of these places and some cave professionals (although other cave pro's disagree) that they are safe. I guess many see it as a part of the overal learning experience - just as long as you dont take the next step and get tempted into non-OW safe caverns and cave systems, just stick to the safe ones.

I am sure i will get you all jumping on my back about this one. But how many of you who would jump on me for this also dove King Springs, Paradise Springs, Ginnie Ballroom, Blue Grotto and Devils Den (i am sure there might be others including Vortex) prior to getting cavern or cave certified?? I am not saying that is a "way/cop out" but i guess i feel that i am a little less safe than OW, but not going way beyond that training as long as i keep some thoughts in mind about keeping an eye on the line, watching my air, have a buddy and keep an eye on them too, dont take lights where i am not supposed to and stay off the silty bottom of some of these places and frog kick rather than flutter - i think in some of these places the risks are reasonable and considered, in other places they are not, and in those places i wouldnt go til i was trained. I can resist the temptation to go beyond the cavern/light zone and into a cave system, some i guess cant or do it with very minimal regard for their safety (the guy in KS and others).

I know Fred has dove in the vicinity of me before, but the others of you havent, he will also be able to say that i might be impatient to get wet (such as at Venice), but i put all my gear together and triple checked it before getting wet - only to ~16ft max, i do the same checks prior to spring diving too and plan a little more than a shallow shore dive. The others of you, going to Ginnie, see you there, look forward to learning something off you all.

 

[fgray1]

Ok I keep reading about not wanting the line run to ow in P1 to keep the ow divers out, but open water divers can't dive at Peacock Springs State Park except for Orange Grove and they must be with an instructor then.

I have not yet seen the mainline changes in P1.

Fred, where would you suggest Ben to run a reel from to tie off to the mainline? There is no place in the ow area at P1 to do so, and then line is right by the tree (from what I've been told) to where folks used to tie off. Should he have tied off to the ladder? The stairs? I'm not taking sides here, but I think if you are going to disagree with how someone did something, that you should suggest how it should have been done, where to tie off. And also I don't think it was right to comepare Ben to the diver at Crystal River.

Primary wrap outside, secondary wrap at the enertance and then the gold line with placement so the do not interfer with others lines. I have been there several times since the change and always find a place to tie off. No one says you have to tie right at the end of the gold line. In the case of P1 you can still run the line right up the the sign if you wish. I would think that if you have the proper training you should be able to locate a place without my help. I beleive the reason they have run the lines to the entrance is because alot of divers were not following the basic line protocol I've been there and seen the primary tie off inside the entrance. I understand that the traffic that now goes into P1 is high. At times there were 10 or 12 lines running back to the Gold line. My point is that if your going to bend the rules and not use the training why bother. 2 kinds of people get into trouble in caves. Those that think they know everything and feel they don't need to follow their training and those who have very little training.
Is this about Peacock or is this about following Line protocol.
Here is a question for all that beleive the rules don't matter.
Do you do a safety stop? Even if you know your not in deco. I do
Do you allow your childern to play in the street even if there's no traffic. I don't. I sorry if me following the rules and not accepting the exception to the rule theary when it comes to my diving bothers you.
As I said before maybe you missed it. The man in Crystal river was used as a example how how things can go wrong fast.
I compared the judgement used not the person.
I think We've beaten this to death( no pun intented) You can dive any way you want to and I'll dive the way I was trained.
Anyone that dives with me knows how I feel.
Fred

 

[jviehe]

I know that OW divers aren't supposed to be there without an instructor, but they tend to find the springs nonetheless. As a matter of fact, I was at Peacock and saw an older gentlemen with scuba gear looking for a buddy. Okay, no harm in that you say! He was wearing a jacket style bc and the ultimate OW 'giveaway'...he had a snorkel. Not to mention his very bright wetsuit, fins etc! (Yeah I know...some of you out there like wearing the bright stuff! I'm not giving up any names!) He was asking us about the cavern/cave etc (seemed like he wanted one of us to buddy up with him), but we really didn't provide any info and we made sure he never got in the water with his scuba gear. So, the question is: What happened if he found a buddy and/or decided to go solo. The line is in very plain view and one with an 'explorer' type attitue, the line one helluva a temptation!
Not to change the thread here, but I just wanted to comment about some of the discussion regarding the placement of the mainline and your (Wendy) comments regarding OW divers not allowed in the springs.

Oh, by the way, I found out the next week that that that guy was a cave diving pioneer. He was at the park meeting.