Salvage diving question

[Cave Diver]

Also, sounds like your buddies were just a couple of guys who dive, not commercial divers or salvage diver, etc. To use your tow truck analogy, that would kind of be like having your car break down, calling a buddy with a truck and tow strap to tow you home, then trying to get your insurance company to cover "towing charges." Apples and oranges.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I used to charge $200 to show up, including the first hour in the water, and $100 per hour after that. If a boat was needed the customer could provide a suitable boat that we'd agree upon in advance, or I'd provide the boat for an extra fee. But that usually involved vehicle recoveries or large and spendy items and covered the overhead on expensive rigging, lift bags, etc. and insurance company approval was usually obtained in advance.

I also charged the same rate to the USDA/Forrest Service from time to time as well under sole source contracts where time was critical.

On small items for individual customers, I'd charge a flat hourly rate based on the difficulty of the diving with the understanding that I'd get paid whether the item was found or not, and then ask them again if they knew EXACTLY where they lost it. Often, the area where it was believed to be in went from a finger pointing to an exact spot, to more of an arm sweep over a 1/4 square mile area, and after hearing the math, the customer would often decide on either not doing a search or limiting it to a specific area and amount of time.

Insurance companies run a business and I can't imagine an insurance company paying $2100 for a gold wedding band, unless it was encrusted with investment quality diamonds and ensured for it's full replacement value. They won't pay for sentimental value. Even if the ring is worth that amount, or more than that amount, if the odds of finding it are low and there is a risk of spending significant cash searching for the ring unsuccessfully, and then still having to replace it or pay off the claim, then they may elect not to search at all.

In that regard, when the insured party initiates their own search, they have taken away any risk and cost control or cost containment methodologies (bids, contracts, etc) the insurer may have had and you are exposing them to a level risk and financial obligation that they have no obligation to accept. The recovery is in short, something you initiated and something you'll need to pay for.

As a diver who has done that type of work, my position is you owe the divers involved and you'll need to pay them off, even if perhaps you agreed to more than they were probably worth depending on their experience level and the nature of the diving. An experienced recovery diver will find an object a lot quicker than an inexperienced diver 9 times out of 10, so you'll pay for inexperience as well even if the hourly rate is lower as you'll just pay more in total due to paying for a greater number of hours (another very solid reason your insurance company is not going to want to pay for services of divers with little or no past performance history or recommendations).

Now, to be fair, everyone should have been very upfront about the potential costs and the lengths you were willing to go and the cash available to fund a search before it was begun - but that's the difference between using someone who does this as a business versus a couple of friends who dive.

 

[fstbttms]

You- "My mom "lost" her wedding ring and now I want you to cut me a check for $2100 so I can pay the two buddies of mine who drove 100 miles to spend a weekend scuba diving for it."

Insurance company- "Yeah, right. Now get out of here before we call the cops."

 

[Divejones]

I would very much like for her to get her ring back and see this issue put to bed. Three nights of seeing her cry her self to sleep was enough torture.

Insurance company guys own islands and private jets, how? by being stingy. having said that, even they wont go into the casket taking all that, 2100 is worth it to see her off the agony. pay it, and get the ring back. hard to say, will say it anyway, think that insurance muggers mugged you.

 

[fstbttms]

Here's my point- the insurance company has no proof that the ring even went missing. All they know is that one of their customers is claiming a piece of jewelry was lost and now he wants to be paid for finding it.

That would be a sweet scam if the insurance company was run by morons. But it isn't. hbrother:

 

[Wookie]

The question is "How does Salvage work"

This is the simplest answer. When a vessel is lost, one of 2 salvage contracts is signed. Note I said contracts, not handshake agreements. One of those contracts is called a Lloyds open form. This is the form that all salvage contractors dream about, and this is the one your divers think that they have. It's closely related to "Finders, keepers". Lets say an item is lost at sea. the salvage company gets the owner to sign a Lloyds open form contract, and the item now (kind of) belongs to the salvors, as do the liabilities. If the item lost explodes and kills turtles, the salvor goes to jail. When the salvor safely delivers the sunken item to a safe place (it has to float on it's own for 24 hours, or be placed on the hard), the salvors submit their expenses and reasonable profit to the owners and negotiate for salvage costs. The salvors own the item until negotiations are complete.

The other salvage contract is known colloquially as the "BoatUS" contract. If you ground, run out of gas, take water, whatever, and you call BoatUS, they will make you at least verbally agree to a salvage contract worth 10% of the value of the item, and make you sign a standard BoatUS form before giving you a pump, line, or tank of fuel. They are again responsible for your item (usually a boat) until it is in a safe place, or you release them from their services. Lets say you ground. They will be happy to tow you off. Before they put a line on your boat, you will sign a BoatUS salvage contract promising them 10% of the value of the vessel, or an hourly rate. Once they float you, you may be towed back to a safe harbour or continue on on your own, or be cited by the folks responsible for the health of the sea bottom in your area.

What you have is a pig in a poke. You verbally agreed to pay a salvage to 2 salvage divers. You showed them where the ring was, and they found it. Legally, it's finders keepers. Now, you have negotiated a rate of $2100 for the return of the ring. You likely did all of this without the knowledge and consent of the insurance company, therefore they are under no obligation to refund you the $2100. They may have a dive team on retainer who would have recovered the ring for say $500 flat fee plus a monthly retainer. so. You contracted for a service. You are now obligated to pay for the service. If you choose not to pay for the service you contracted (a verbal agreement is as good as a written contract when they hold the ring) they have every right to file a lien against the property and gain ownership of it. Once they own it, they may sell it to you or to anyone else.

That's how salvage works.

 

[VanHalen5150]

I'll add a bit of info here that may or may not clear things up some, or no pun intended muddy the waters further. LOL.

Ring was lost wednesday, Insurance company was called and notified of the loss Thursday, Came out friday morning and said forget it, We'll cut you a check for the amount insured. They arent worried about fraud, there isn't any, This would be the first claim thats been made on the homeowners in close to 20 years. and the claim 20 years ago was very minor storm damage.

Anyway..

Having assumed the matter settled we went about discussing the sentemental value of the ring etc etc and I though of the idea of hiring the divers. Called them up and they came out and met with us and took a look over the lake and got a description of what/how/where/why/when etc etc. Given that the insurance company had already said they'd settle the claim we figured it a done deal and hired the guys with the stipulation "No find, No fee" However I did on the side myself have to agree to cover expenses such as food, fuel and air to seal that deal. Which would have worked out to probably a hundred bucks or so.

Fast forward to Monday AM and the rings recovered and the invoice submitted. (The guy IS legit, licensed and insured) My mom drops the invoice off at the insurance company and tells them to make the check out to the diver. Thats when the **** hit the fan.

Hope that clears some things up.

 

[diversteve]

I though of the idea of hiring the divers.

You contracted with the divers without the approval of the insurance company. Therefore they have no legal obligation to pay the invoice. You can't as an individual insuree contract on their behalf unless it's previously allowed within your policy. That's why they sent out an adjuster that Friday.

The divers found the ring so now there is no loss claim for the insurance company to pay against. So I don't think you'll be seeing their $2100 check anytime soon.

Since you

hired the guys with the stipulation "No find, No fee" However I did on the side myself have to agree to cover expenses such as food, fuel and air to seal that deal.

You now legally owe them for the recovery. After payment they need to surrender the ring as that is your legal contract with them.

 

[fstbttms]

You contracted with the divers without the approval of the insurance company. Therefore they have no legal obligation to pay the invoice.

Yeah, I don't even see where there's a question about it.

We... hired the guys with the stipulation "No find, No fee" .

Two guys spent 20 man-hours on a job where there was a very real probability that they weren't going to get paid? And these guys are professional divers of some sort?

 

[VanHalen5150]

Yeah, I don't even see where there's a question about it.


Two guys spent 20 man-hours on a job where there was a very real probability that they weren't going to get paid? And these guys are professional divers of some sort?

Yep, Dude has about a 90% success rate. Wasn't much of a risk to him. it was just a matter of how long he would have to look. I mean he has a $2,000 underwater metal detector. He says the damned this is so good if Jimmy Hoffa had fillings it would find him.

Further background on the diver, Hes licensed and insured, Worked for the Army CoE for 12 years, 8 of those as a diver amongst other things, After getting out of the service in Cali he worked doing underwater inspections on bridge pilings or something. He told me but I'm not clear on exactly what now. He also did freelance salvage work in Cali and once recovered a $24,000 Rolex a guy dropped off a sail boat in Lake Tahoe. That dive is what sold him on and paid for his fisher metal detector, he had been renting them for like $50-$75 a day, but after finding the Rolex and getting paid he bought his own brand new and loves it.

By the way the Rolex deal? $100 an hour or 20% whichever is greater. He got it in 6 hours, got paid $4,800, Paid his safety diver a pre contracted $500, Had probably a hundred in gas and Scuba tank fills. $4,200 isn't bad for an afternoons work. And the insurance company was happy as well, they saved just under $20K.:cool2: