"Right to Repair" - Potentially great news for DIY!

[greeniguana]

Last time I got my regs back from servicing, one of them had a missing O-ring on the SPG.. Like, did they ever think of pressurizing it before handing it back to me? Point is, there seems to be this faulty notion that "authorized" repair is always superior to everything else, including your own skills.

Well, I don't take my regs to dive shops for service, but if I did I would not leave without hooking them up, testing them, and checking the IP.

 

[Jcp2]

An o-ring in my SPG blew out, and the instructor working with my daughter recommended that I go to the shop to get some replacement o-rings. They refused to do so, and offered to give me a rental regulator. In the end the instructor gave me a couple from his own save a dive kit. Afterwards I walked to the big box dive store who happily sold me a box of various o rings, and even asked if I was diving nitrox as they had nitrile and viton kits. My computer battery also conked out on the same trip. Although this same store did not have the complete replacement kit with battery, o ring, and replacement cover from the manufacturer, and was not allowed to officially work on the computer, they gave me a small place on the counter and a screwdriver so I could open the computer back. Once I did that, they sold me the replacement battery at a fraction of the cost of the kit, and then gave me a small jar of silicone for me to relubricate the o ring. I’m sure that of the o ring was bad, they would have sold me a replacement on the spot as well.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

An o-ring in my SPG blew out, and the instructor working with my daughter recommended that I go to the shop to get some replacement o-rings. They refused to do so, and offered to give me a rental regulator. In the end the instructor gave me a couple from his own save a dive kit. Afterwards I walked to the big box dive store who happily sold me a box of various o rings, and even asked if I was diving nitrox as they had nitrile and viton kits. My computer battery also conked out on the same trip. Although this same store did not have the complete replacement kit with battery, o ring, and replacement cover from the manufacturer, and was not allowed to officially work on the computer, they gave me a small place on the counter and a screwdriver so I could open the computer back. Once I did that, they sold me the replacement battery at a fraction of the cost of the kit, and then gave me a small jar of silicone for me to relubricate the o ring. I’m sure that of the o ring was bad, they would have sold me a replacement on the spot as well.

Now that's service. Some shops act like they don't even want to be in business. It is no surprise that so many wind up closing.

 

[greeniguana]

That sounds like an EPA enforcement issue. How does that hurt John Deere (or any other company)? Because right now, farmers really don't have a 3rd party option for repair because firmware and hardware are locked down to requiring a secret key from a manufacturer. You'll see this in newer iPhones. Take two brand-new iPhones out of the case, swap the cameras, and they won't work... There is no benefit to the user from this. Both cameras are legitimate Apple parts, in mint condition. And yet the motherboard only allows the hardware ID of the original camera. The only way to remap it is through proprietary (secret) software directly through Apple (and this sort of stuff isn't only one company, it spreads quickly to others).

Imagine if you could only replace tires that had a chip from the car's manufacturer in them, or fridge water filters. The core of the right-to-repair campaign is to stop manufacturer abuse, lock-in, and at the end of the day, anti-competitive practices.

I see a theme; people disgruntled about Apple repair policy. The simple solution is to stop buying buy Apple products. No need to get the federal government involved.

Maybe it will also curb their human trafficking and use of foreign slave labor too.

 

[Scared Silly]

Probably already been said but the right to repair doesn't equate to the ability to repair it yourself but to have the item repaired rather than replaced.

Regulators are regularly repaired. The only affect within the scuba industry will be with computers.

 

[Bigbella]

I believe most people have no interest in servicing their own gear. I think they drop it off at the LDS to get serviced . . . The people who are interested in self service are a very small minority. They are the types that will always be into self service no matter how hard the parts are to obtain, they will always find some back alley work around. It’s more than just saving money for them, it’s a way of life and a hobby.

I believe that you're quite right; either the prospect of fiddling with regulators and other mechanical objects, particularly suits your personality; or it simply and more commonly, does not. Quite a bit of irrational fear is also built into that same equation.

I originally caught the regulator bug, when I was a kid, working at a local dive shop, when the old Navy guy who did most of the repair work, thought it important enough that we see the guts of the gear that we were selling -- mostly Scubapro or Poseidon back then -- and he was responsible for maintaining; and quickly had a couple of us dismantling first and second stages, into those funny, enameled kidney-shaped dishes common to hospitals. He later put us to work, manipulating parts with chopsticks, in an old ultrasonic cleaner, that could rattle your teeth, all the while, huffing 50˚C hempocid solutions.

I'll always recall the old guy, saying, "Put my tools back exactly where you found them -- exactly! Lose nothing! If not, you punks ever hear of Golgotha?"

"Yeah -- your point?"

"You should be so lucky . . ."

 

[Addison Snyder]

I see a theme; people disgruntled about Apple repair policy. The simple solution is to stop buying buy Apple products. No need to get the federal government involved.
Maybe it will also curb their human trafficking and use of foreign slave labor too.

Manufacturer abuses have spread like a cancer across products and industries. "Don't buy Apple" doesn't work when 99% of other smartphone manufacturers feature a locked-down bootloader, mostly non-replaceable parts, and an OS laden with spyware and garbage that you can't uninstall without putting on custom ROM (see locked-down bootloader). We are no longer in a place where picking the lesser of evils is a viable strategy. The lesser evils realize they can make more money off of you and it's become a race to the bottom, with Apple, John Deere, Tesla, etc. just happening to lead in that race.

So yeah, people are bringing up these companies as the headliner targets. But the truth is that you probably can't get good repairs or schematics off an HP laptop or a Samsung phone.

Another note: medical device repair has also evolved into a mess from abuses

 

[SlugLife]

I believe most people have no interest in servicing their own gear. I can’t picture someone working in a high pay field thinking they need to get a hold of some parts so they can be ready for their multiple thousands of dollars live aboard trip coming up. I think they drop it off at the LDS to get serviced.
The people who are interested in self service are a very small minority. They are the types that will always be into self service no matter how hard the parts are to obtain, they will always find some back alley work around. It’s more than just saving money for them, it’s a way of life and a hobby.
It would be in the best interest of all companies to provide parts to these people if they were truly worried about peoples’ personal safety in that they would be getting real factory parts and not aftermarket sourced kits with possible wrong rubber compounds, wrong seat materials, tolerances just a tick off, etc.
It would also make their brands more attractive to a bigger cross section of people if the DIY’er knows they can legitimately buy parts.
DIY’ers will always work on their own stuff and others will always take their stuff in. I don’t think that ratio will ever change.

Absolutely true. Although the part you may be missing, is that by enabling DIY repair, you're also enabling 3rd-party repair. So there could be a massive benefit to end-consumers, in terms of cost and competition. (if a right-to-repair was drafted properly).

I learned how to service my 1st & 2nd stages. For my first set of 1x first stage & 2x second-stages, it actually cost me FAR, FAR more than if I had just dropped it off at a local scuba-store. Acquiring all the parts, tools, equipment, cleaning-chemicals, etc was expensive and I hesitate to actually add up the cost. Then there's learning how to service the 1st stage & 2nd stage. That again was many hours (I hate to add those up), especially since I initially manually cleaned them with crappy dish-soap. Then there were delays because I was missing parts or tools, had to order stuff online, etc. And then there's putting everything back together, adjusting it properly, etc.

In the end, the monetary-cost, time-cost was several times higher than it would have cost just working a couple hours at a day-job and dropping it off at an LDS.

Now, I'm very much a DIY-er, and there are some benefits. I have multiple sets of regulators, so the cost-per-unit starts going down. I also accidentally dunked a set of regs the other day, and I was able to dissassemble, clean, and re-assemble it in no time, and am ready to dive again.

However, if I had to give myself advice a few months ago, I would recommend:

• Learn how to replace your own o-rings
  
• Learn how to adjust, partially-disassemble, and clean the 2nd stage.
• 2nd stage full service - Maybe yes for a DIY person. No for anyone else. Many 2nd stages are usually pretty easy to take apart, put back together, fairly quick, and require no special tools.
• 1st stage full service - Absolutely not for most people, including DIY-ers. Sure, a DIYer can reliably learn how to do it, but the investment of time, money, learning, tools, etc is pretty big compared to the benefit. The knowledge & tools for one 1st-stage often don't translate to another 1st stage.
  • I'll service my Scubapro MK10s now, since I already know that specific reg, but almost certainly not bother with any other brand or model. I made a small attempt at a SP MK15, took it apart just fine, couldn't find a parts-kit or good instructions, and just left it disassembled and traded it for a MK10.

Two out of three times I've had my regs "professionally" serviced, I had to return them for tweaking. In one case, my regs literally blew off into free-flow. Seems my LDS used "generic" parts, or as the other shop guy (who rebuilt them properly) said... "I think they used the Home Depot Universal Plumbing Repair Kit for parts..." Good thing I was only in 120' in a rip-ass current.

From what I gather, many LDS frequently ship your regulators somewhere, and have someone else do it which is why it takes so long.

But I've definitely seen plenty of stories of LDS's ******* up reg-rebuilds. I'm more confident in my own work, or at least my ability to fix my own work.

That sounds like an EPA enforcement issue. How does that hurt John Deere (or any other company)? Because right now, farmers really don't have a 3rd party option for repair because firmware and hardware are locked down to requiring a secret key from a manufacturer. You'll see this in newer iPhones. Take two brand-new iPhones out of the case, swap the cameras, and they won't work... There is no benefit to the user from this. Both cameras are legitimate Apple parts, in mint condition. And yet the motherboard only allows the hardware ID of the original camera. The only way to remap it is through proprietary (secret) software directly through Apple (and this sort of stuff isn't only one company, it spreads quickly to others).

Imagine if you could only replace tires that had a chip from the car's manufacturer in them, or fridge water filters. The core of the right-to-repair campaign is to stop manufacturer abuse, lock-in, and at the end of the day, anti-competitive practices.

As I mentioned several times in this thread, some of these problems should be addressed in very direct ways.

I boycott Apple, and have for years. That aside, it seems absolutely reasonable to make it so you can sue or fine manufactures who deliberately brick their products, and put obvious BS obstacles in front of DIY repair.

Indeed, indeed, indeed!

Reduce, reuse, recycle! I print a few parts I need for around the home, for Scuba, for my vehicle. I often repurpose items and if I can build it, you can bet I won't buy it. My son once told his friend that there was nothing I couldn't fix. While I think that was a bit of an exaggeration, I have fixed and improved a lot in my lifetime. I've put on two roofs, done a lot of replumbing, rebuilt engines (big and small), welded things together, and more. I don't really trust the pros to do the same quality of work as I demand of myself. When it comes to Scuba, I have more riding on having it done right than any technician. Scuba equipment is as simple as it comes. Take your time, take copious pictures, no take even more pictures, ask all the questions you want here, and learn while doing. Pros built the Titanic with state-of-the-art tools while amateurs built the ark with an adze, gopher wood, and no youtube. You can quote me on that!

The massive benefit of DIY for me isn't any monetary savings, but the ability to customize and experiment. Quite frequently, my first prototypes are failures, and a waste of time and money. However, I also acknowledge that going in.

Neither am I.

Gilgamesh first recounted the great flood and ark story. Just saying.

It's the height of ego-centrism that many people think they had to have help from aliens to build them, too. Just because they are so dim, they can't imagine how to do it, doesn't mean our ancestors weren't smart enough to prove them wrong before they were even born.

IMO, the major intellectual-difference between an adult and child is knowledge and experience, not intelligence. Children are potentially more intelligent. Same applies in other contexts, like the difference between a junior vs senior software engineer.

The ancients weren't that different from us biologically. The environment, available knowledge, and available technology was different. In many ways, many of them were as smart and capable. If you read some of the classics, like The Enchiridion by Epictetus, we clearly had intelligent and thoughtful ancestors.

In the inverse, I'd also say modern humans are just as flawed as our ancestors were as well. I see modern humans making some massive ignorant fk-ups in large numbers. I don't want this thread to become political, so lets just leave it at that.

An o-ring in my SPG blew out, and the instructor working with my daughter recommended that I go to the shop to get some replacement o-rings. They refused to do so, and offered to give me a rental regulator. In the end the instructor gave me a couple from his own save a dive kit. Afterwards I walked to the big box dive store who happily sold me a box of various o rings, and even asked if I was diving nitrox as they had nitrile and viton kits. My computer battery also conked out on the same trip. Although this same store did not have the complete replacement kit with battery, o ring, and replacement cover from the manufacturer, and was not allowed to officially work on the computer, they gave me a small place on the counter and a screwdriver so I could open the computer back. Once I did that, they sold me the replacement battery at a fraction of the cost of the kit, and then gave me a small jar of silicone for me to relubricate the o ring. I’m sure that of the o ring was bad, they would have sold me a replacement on the spot as well.

After that experience, I'm guessing you started having spare-o-rings on hand? I'm surprised the instructor didn't just replace the o-ring in the first place, although maybe he was busy.

 

[Jcp2]

The instructor got me the o rings after class. I replaced the ones on the spool back at my hotel, but now have a small apartment in my dive box.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Some people get into DIY because they become vintage gear aficionados. Some people do it because they no longer trust dive shops with their gear no matter what it costs them. Some just want to be self reliant, maybe they travel a lot and find themselves in some very remote locations around the world. Perhaps some of them are scientific divers or explorers? I’m sure they are good candidates for DIY. A handfull of parts kits, a few tools and they’re set for many years.
I may be more reluctant to trust a reg tech I don’t know in some far off foreign country half way across the world. Maybe the parts are hard or impossible to come by in some locations for the particular brand and model.
I can see a lot of reasons why DIY is attractive.