we lose out also because we are all but forced to have our equipment serviced by an LDS. True, for the majority of divers, this is the best way to go, but not for me. I enjoy learning about my equipment and becoming more in tune with it. It makes me a better, safer, and more knowledgeable diver. I have the time to service my own equipment and I have or am acquiring the proper tools to do the work. My problem... There's no place for me in the manufactures "big plan". I accept all responsibilities for my actions (something that most techs really truly don't except for certain remote instances). You don't take a ride with someone if you are unsure of how much they value your own life. That really doesn't even compare, because at least if you're in a car with someone, their life is at stake also. Even if you don't have your doubts, its better to go with the one you trust the most... yourself. Sorry to rant as I usually do and I realize this isn't the issue. The issue is that I'm losing out because I have go the same route as Leisure Pro sometimes apparently does and search out dealers than need to make some sales or are going out of business in order for me to find service parts. Those that will have their equipment serviced at the LDS will always have it serviced that way and those of us that choose to service our own will always find a way to make it happen. An LDS that will support my needs will be my only source for all my other diving needs, just not servicing my equipment. I don't see that as the LDS losing anything, but rather gaining a devoted and valuable customer as well as a good spokesperson for their business.
Regulator servicing... everyone that's not a tech, vote...
- Thread starter jamiei
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but I have had manufacturer's sales reps tell me to my face that they "enforce" minimum mark-ups through a majority of their dealers, and then turn a blind eye to the actions of their high sales volume dealers.
That means there is probably a little truth in all sides of the discussion. LP probably does deal direct with many manufacturers, but may have to resort to procuring stock overseas for some lines.
Many of my European dive buddies are amazed at the prices for scuba gear in the American market - prices which are likely held artificially high by "agreements" between retailers and manufacturers. Call it collusion, but the LDS agrees because they need equipment to sell and they rarely have enough money to carry enough inventory to reach a truly high volume level. The manufacturer helps create local markets with little price variance.
That means there is probably a little truth in all sides of the discussion. LP probably does deal direct with many manufacturers, but may have to resort to procuring stock overseas for some lines.
Many of my European dive buddies are amazed at the prices for scuba gear in the American market - prices which are likely held artificially high by "agreements" between retailers and manufacturers. Call it collusion, but the LDS agrees because they need equipment to sell and they rarely have enough money to carry enough inventory to reach a truly high volume level. The manufacturer helps create local markets with little price variance.
don't take this wrong at all drew or anyone else, but the reason for this thread is for those that want to be able to work on their own regs and have reliable sources to purchase parts. I'm not here to argue over agreements b/w LDSs and manufacturers, just to find answers to our questions and try to open a few doors. As I have said before, I'll gladly pay my LDSs prices (within reason) without question if they'll meet my needs as someone who needs parts to work on their equipment. Give and take, its as simple as that.
I'll bet you buds from accross the pond would also be surprised at what it costs me to the rent the building.
how much the insurance costs me
how much the product costs me
How much you make at your job
When you know your way around you will have sources for parts. I know lots of guys servicing their own stuff. It is easy to find enough parts for your personal regs.
The LDS are losing far more than you.
First of all I would make more money selling parts than servicing regs. Doing the service takes time while selling parts doesn't. But besides that the same policies that make it hard for you to get parts prevent me from being able to service the most popular brands in the area. In other words we don't have a service business.
You lose a little convenience while some of us have lost everything we had.
having costs to run a business entitles one to use anti-competitive pricing policies.
It is this kind of attitude that is at the root of the problem with diveshop loyalty.
Nobody in business deserves a profit, and attempts to protect (rather than earn) said profit usually result in unhappy customers and loss of market share - a nice feedback loop that eventually wrecks you.
It is this kind of attitude that is at the root of the problem with diveshop loyalty.
Nobody in business deserves a profit, and attempts to protect (rather than earn) said profit usually result in unhappy customers and loss of market share - a nice feedback loop that eventually wrecks you.
We were wrecked before we started. The things I tell you folks cost me everything I had to find out cause nobody told me.
Get this through your head Genesis we are not decision makers in these things. We are out of recourses. We are already bouycotting most manufacturers. We barely manage to unlock the @$%^* door in the morning. We have never profited from anything in the dive business.
I lose a bunch on the fact I can't service Aqualung regs. Suppose you find a reliable source of parts and up to date service info and sell them to me so I don't have to turn all these folks away. If you can't find a source why don't you apply pressure to Aqualung to open things up. I have been talking to them for years and they don't care. I refuse to do other business with them and they don't care. I am too small and they don't care.
Same with Scuba Pro, If you folks are so dead set against these practices why take it out on the LDS who is powerless? Why don't you stop being a hypocrite and use your power as a consumer to tell them what you want. You reward them. You are in a position of greater power than I am. Your whining about a problem you dont even have. You already have your cake and eat it too.
It seems that everyone is able to compete except the dive shops. I think the wrong people are being accused of anti-compeative practices.
And what, specifically qualifies you to determine what mark-up would be competitive or correct. How many dive businesses have you owned and operated? For those that don't know you genesis, i'll answer that for you. You have never owned or operated a dive business therefore have little idea of what the costs are. You don't like what you have to pay to gear up in this new hobby you have chosen, few of us ever have.
But i for one can accept the concept of a low volume, high overhead business. Not all LDS are located in high volume areas such as many areas in florida. I would agree that a manufacturer that puts out one price, no exceptions, for all LDS in the US is being less than fair to consumers in high volume areas but don't claim that you know what competitive is in lower volume areas. You don't have a clue.
I'm not in the dive business but few of my customers would appreciate the mark-up i must place on our products and services to stay in business. How could they unless they were or had been, in the same business. I certainly don't care for some of the antics i've run into over the years at LDS's but am far from qualified in telling them what the correct mark-up should be for their products and services.
I'll say one thing, i've been paying 3 bucks for air fills for over 15 years. Hey that's great for me as the consumer but does that make any sense in any business model you have seen. 15 years of cost increases with no increase in the price you charge for a service? It's insane! In that same 15 years, my labor costs alone have almost doubled.
is whatever you can get people to willingly pay in a freely-competitive, non-price-controlled, marketplace.
You keep coming back to this "you've never run a dive shop" nonsense.
Its irrelavent to the point.
The point is that price and access controlled markets are not freely competitive. They inherently gouge consumers via these policies, and no amount of whining over costs changes this.
I accept the concept of a low-volume, high-overhead business. I ran one. Right next door, almost literally (less than a mile away) from a high-volume company that sold some of the same products we sold!
The difference is that I could not hide behind distributor agreements. I had to find ways to compete in handling those lines of product, or stop selling them. Some we stopped selling, literally sending customers to the high-volume place down the street! But others we were able to be quite competitive with, even though we were more expensive. We did it with policies and services that the high-volume guys could not provide at their price-point.
You think I'm a hypocrite for buying from the lower-price sellers? I don't. I think you (as a group - not you individually Mike) are poor businesspeople and have made no effort to earn and retain my business. Quite obviously, not all sellers of these products are subject these policies that you and others wave around. Quite obviously, some sellers have discovered that they don't need to play by those rules. Quite obviously, some sellers have figured out how to skin the cat - proving that it can be done.
Instead of competing, those dive shops who are "affronted" that such sales take place lie and holler. Some lie - claiming that places like LP "bait and switch" or sell "counterfeit" goods (they do neither; I've personal experience with this.) Some scream that we, as customers, are the cause of this problem (absolutely false - we're not the ones agreeing to anything.) Others just whine about costs.
The simple fact of the matter, Mike, is that dive shops are the ones with the ability to fix this - if they want to. They can organize. They can make a stink. They can get together with others in other lines of work where such tactics are used (car audio being one - see Fosgate's "agreements" for an example of the same kind of thing) and go after their legislators to demand that this conduct by SPECIFICALLY legislated out of existance.
You say you can't get two shops to agree on anything. But there you're wrong too - you agree on THIS! You both are signing the same agreements, even if you're not in the same room. Obviously, just by conduct, there are points on which you agree.
THAT agreement is what I see.....
You keep coming back to this "you've never run a dive shop" nonsense.
Its irrelavent to the point.
The point is that price and access controlled markets are not freely competitive. They inherently gouge consumers via these policies, and no amount of whining over costs changes this.
I accept the concept of a low-volume, high-overhead business. I ran one. Right next door, almost literally (less than a mile away) from a high-volume company that sold some of the same products we sold!
The difference is that I could not hide behind distributor agreements. I had to find ways to compete in handling those lines of product, or stop selling them. Some we stopped selling, literally sending customers to the high-volume place down the street! But others we were able to be quite competitive with, even though we were more expensive. We did it with policies and services that the high-volume guys could not provide at their price-point.
You think I'm a hypocrite for buying from the lower-price sellers? I don't. I think you (as a group - not you individually Mike) are poor businesspeople and have made no effort to earn and retain my business. Quite obviously, not all sellers of these products are subject these policies that you and others wave around. Quite obviously, some sellers have discovered that they don't need to play by those rules. Quite obviously, some sellers have figured out how to skin the cat - proving that it can be done.
Instead of competing, those dive shops who are "affronted" that such sales take place lie and holler. Some lie - claiming that places like LP "bait and switch" or sell "counterfeit" goods (they do neither; I've personal experience with this.) Some scream that we, as customers, are the cause of this problem (absolutely false - we're not the ones agreeing to anything.) Others just whine about costs.
The simple fact of the matter, Mike, is that dive shops are the ones with the ability to fix this - if they want to. They can organize. They can make a stink. They can get together with others in other lines of work where such tactics are used (car audio being one - see Fosgate's "agreements" for an example of the same kind of thing) and go after their legislators to demand that this conduct by SPECIFICALLY legislated out of existance.
You say you can't get two shops to agree on anything. But there you're wrong too - you agree on THIS! You both are signing the same agreements, even if you're not in the same room. Obviously, just by conduct, there are points on which you agree.
THAT agreement is what I see.....
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