Regulator servicing... everyone that's not a tech, vote...

If you work on your own regs and are not a tech, would you take the courses?

  • Yes, I would love to... a good diver learns as much as he/she can and doesn't put their safety in ot

    Votes: 98 81.7%
  • No, i know enough and have sources for parts

    Votes: 5 4.2%
  • No, who needs it? Safety Smaftey (this is what the people that select the option below think we are

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • I'm one of the "let the techs do it" so i shouldn't be voting anyway

    Votes: 16 13.3%

  • Total voters
    120
  • Poll closed .

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And LPs have too.

SP has dropped the prices on their "top" reg, the MK25/S600, because there is a new model due within a couple of months.

This is a typical "end of year/end of product cycle" price change.

LP's price on the MK25/S600, by the way, came down about $50 when the price change was announced; the difference in "retail" was roughly $110.

The "650", which is the new model replacing the S600, is not yet available.

LP is obviously doing quite well; their model DOES work. That much is obvious.
 
jamiei once bubbled...
my style of diving is get wet and have fun. I have no other motives... its for leisure... hmmm its recreational diving... thats is what we do it for, right? We sure don't make any money under there do we? If you're not making money down there, and you're not doing it for fun, why the heck are you down there? A friend of mine dates a guy that some of these comments remind me of. The I have a boat, he has a space shuttle kind of guy. Who got into diving to see if they could pull off a 300 ft. decompression dive? Most all of us got into it to have fun and see what's down there. To explore another world. Some people seem like all they want to do is sit around with their 7 ft hose bungied around their neck and tell people about it. I just want to have fun diving... so call me a rec diver all you want... it doesn't make you a better or safer diver... you're just as likely to die down there with a bp/wings as you are without. It's what's between your ears that makes you a safe diver, not what equipment you buy.
Just to add to this, I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone on this thread, just making generalization, which I apologize for if they offend any of you. This is not my intention because I know there's a lot of great guys with 7 ft hoses around
Heck, if you're gonna turn my thread around, i gotta get my 2 cents in a few times.

You seem to miss understand my post.I find diving extremely fun and the day i dont have fun is the day i quit.I also enjoy the challenging side of diving and all the oppurtunities available such as deep diving and wreck penetration.The reason for the bp is the option to expand to doubles later on.My entire reason for diving is wanting to explore another world not to sit around and brag with a 7' hose wrapped around my neck as you would say.

I never claimed to be a better diver than you.I am taking more advanced training so i can explore more of the underwater world in a safe manner,not to brag how im a much better diver than you.I have never pushed my equipment style on anyone and you can dive however you wish.I did what i felt was best for me, not you.Equipment doesnt make you a better diver but it sure can help in getting proper trim,stowing accessories and so on.

Your right as far as safety being what is between your ears.It also matters on your training.Are you trained well enough or practice enough to handle any emergency that might arise in an efficient manner.If you can say yes to that and are "all that" and a cup of tea,your the man. I know im not which is why i pursue more advanced training and continue to practice skills.So if a emergency arrives with me or my buddy we can handle it in a safe manner.We just had someone die here locally for not being able to handle an emergency.The whole story is unclear but in my opinion no one should have died from it.Its unfortunate and maybe if they had better training or practiced there skills more often that dead diver would be alive today.Thats where more advanced training comes in from the likes of mike ferrera ,gue,etc.Those are just a few of many.To me kneeling on the bottom and removing your reg and mask doesnt cut it as the bottom may not always be an option.You should be efficient in doing those skills while hovering midwater and not kneeling on the bottom. Just because you refer to yourself as a rec diver doesnt exempt you from practicing your basic skills.Most of the guys i know havent practiced any basic skills since openwater training.Shame on them when they have to rely on these much needed skills they never practice.

Just to let you know your thread doesnt offend me nor am i trying to twist it around back on you.It is ok to enjoy diving for fun only.But dont knock somebody for wanting to explore the more challenging side of it and there equipment style. You will never see me pushing my style of equipment on you and bragging to you im a better diver.But i will answer any questions concerning my gear set up and training in a respectable manner.
 
awap once bubbled...
I stopped at LDS (to get air, price a wing, and talk training) today and found that he recently became a Scubapro dealer. This area (50 mile radius) lost it's only SP dealer about 4 years ago so I suspect SP was looking to reestablish a presence. I was looking at a DR wing and asked if he could compete with LP price. (Unfortunately, he said he could not.) But he also told me that he had gotten a call from Leisurepro who wanted to buy 6 figures worth of SP goods. So, some of their stuff does come from US retailers and they (LP) must be doing fairly well if they can even make such an offer.


This is how I was told they get some of their stuff. Not all maybe but some. This shop owner had to agree to terms such as not selling online to get his SP dealership. The way LP gets around the dealer restrictions is to pay someone else to break their agreement rather than do it themself. Very upstanding.

I'll tell you something else, Zeagle has pulled dealerships from shops that have sold to LP. LP has a great setup they pay someone else tobreak their agreement. Someone else pays the penalty.

Many manufacturers simply don't want to be represented by a firm like LP. They have that right. LP denies them that right as many divers think LP oporates with the blessing of the manufacturer.

I wish the manufacturers would sell direct. That would put a quick end to the likes of LP and less non-scuba people would remain in the scuba business.

Genesis if I was going to go through the trouble of organizing dive shops it wouldn't be so you could buy parts it would be to deny LP this source of goods.


I have had such offers on Halcyon equipment. Halcyon requires a dealer to be a full service dive shop. Most manufacturers have this requirement. They have that right. Someone who didn't want to hire or become an instructor and didn't want the expense, work and liability of a fill station decided they would try to do business with me rather than Halcyon. I guess they thought I might be desperate enough. It was a sizable order so I offered a reasonable discount and asked for assurance that they weren't buying for the purpose of resale. I was told that the order was from a tech group/club who was pooling their money. I checked on this person/company and they had clearly lied. The sale never happened. I will never need or want money bad enough to sell to any company like this.
 
This shop owner had to agree to terms such as not selling online to get his SP dealership. The way LP gets around the dealer restrictions is to pay someone else to break their agreement rather than do it themself. Very upstanding.

The dealer is not selling online. And SP's policy does not require "agreement" that you won't sell at a discount - it just reserves the right to cancel your dealership if you do. Such an "agreement" is per-se illegal Mike, and these policy statements all specifically say that the manufacturer will make NO agreement with ANYONE on resale prices.

I have these agreements. They are no such thing. They are threats. You can't break what you didn't make.

I have posted the specific language from several of these agreements right here Mike. You know what's in them - you've signed a few. You KNOW there is no agreement not to sell at a discount - and that, in fact, the documents make an EXPLICIT statement that the company will MAKE NO SUCH AGREEMENT (its illegal - that's why!) So there is no agreement to break - because it was never made.

Why is it that you keep repeating this falsehood Mike? It won't become "true" from repetition, you know....
 
Genesis once bubbled...


The dealer is not selling online. And SP's policy does not require "agreement" that you won't sell at a discount - it just reserves the right to cancel your dealership if you do. Such an "agreement" is per-se illegal Mike, and these policy statements all specifically say that the manufacturer will make NO agreement with ANYONE on resale prices.

I have these agreements. They are no such thing. They are threats. You can't break what you didn't make.

I have posted the specific language from several of these agreements right here Mike. You know what's in them - you've signed a few. You KNOW there is no agreement not to sell at a discount - and that, in fact, the documents make an EXPLICIT statement that the company will MAKE NO SUCH AGREEMENT (its illegal - that's why!) So there is no agreement to break - because it was never made.

Why is it that you keep repeating this falsehood Mike? It won't become "true" from repetition, you know....

Which falsehood did I repeat?

Most (at least some and no I don't have the exact language in front of me) dealer agreements require that you do not knowngly sell to someone who is buying for the purpose of resale. I never said anything about discounts. The manufacturers require a dealer to be a dive shop for a reason. That and other restrictions are there specificly to prevent outfits like LP from representing these products.

Look the manufacturer gets the sale one way or the other. They will make the same one way or the other. Their only reason for requireing a dealer to be a full service dive shop is to choose the kind of representatives they want and the services available there. Do you deny they have that right?

The manufacturers attempted to avoid the exact thing which has happened. LP sells online for reduced prices but offers no real support. Consumers then seek the DS for the same low priced support they have always received. The DS gets put on the spot to provide DS type services (mostly the loss leader ones). The price increase in these services is slow because nobody wants to risk being the first so LP's position of advantage lasts a little longer. The situation is temporary. IMO, the LP business model will not last. The model will not work without diveshops to create their market by certifying divers, having show rooms, providing service ect... while staying out of their market (the net)

LP's advantage comes from two sources. One is the fact that they have a much bigger ALMOST EXCLUSIVE market (we can't sell on-line). Two is their lack of dive shop type work, risk, expense and worry to get in the way. All they have to do is buy and sell.

All that needs to happen is for the manufacturers to tell us we can sell online so we have access to the same market LP does instead of only our little town. However I suspect that LP will still not be a dealer. their advantage will dry up. Eventually this will happen. In that climate in order to even play the game they will need to learn to run a dive shop and become lagit representatives for the products they sell.
 
Most (at least some and no I don't have the exact language in front of me) dealer agreements require that you do not knowngly sell to someone who is buying for the purpose of resale. I never said anything about discounts. The manufacturers require a dealer to be a dive shop for a reason. That and other restrictions are there specificly to prevent outfits like LP from representing these products.

I have several of them right in front of me Mike.

None that I have contain the language you claim exists.

Not one.

All do require a retail establishment, "fair dealing" (e.g. no bait and switch games, no illegal conduct, etc.), "attractive display", knowledge of the line and sport diving in general, etc. Virtually all require "in-person" sales - no internet sales. With the exception of the "no internet sales" clause in some agreements, these are all completely standard commercial agreements, with nothing remarkable and nothing particularly different due to the industry involved. The only really "bizarre" term I have is from a particularly drysuit manufacturer who demands the right to repurchase any stock you have from you, at any time, with or without cause (e.g. if they decide to revoke your dealership they can also buy back all your existing stock to prevent you from disposing of it.) I'm not sure that one would pass legal muster if they had to defend it in court - but its in there.

If LP wants to buy $500,000 worth of product from someone, and does the transaction "in person" (showing up with a check at your store would certainly count), that is legitimate.

All of these agreements also say that dealers independantly determine their own prices, but they then go on (typically in an addendum, not in their dealer agreement itself) to make the threat and if you discount beyond X% (usually 10%, sometimes 20%) from MSRP they "reserve the right not to sell to you."

I see no agreement that can be broken. I see intentional looking the other way with regards to the threats, but that's a dealer's right - and I would even go so far as to argue that it might be their RESPONSIBILITY, faced with what SHOULD BE illegal conduct by the manufacturers and distributors with those "addendum threats".

LPs model is here to stay Mike, and all the wishing in the world will not make it disappear.

What will eventually happen, just as it has in other industries, such as audio and photography, is that the retail stores will refuse to honor the "price fixing" agreements as a group. It doesn't take very many shops, you know. If one region's shops decided to ignore these clauses as a group, then the manufacturers would have to fold their price fixing statements or they would sell ZERO product into that region. Since without market share you cannot be a market leader, this is a lose-lose situation for the manufacturers. SP, for example, simply could not sit by and deal with not selling ANY regulators in the Florida Peninsula or even a sub-state region, say, the state south of Orlando. Why? Because Atomic Aquatics could clean their clock - and would leap at the chance to do it, using the effective boycott of their product by the retail dealers to their great advantage.

Sooner or later some major retail chain will pick up on the idea that they can bury ALL the local competition and bring their considerable buying and "big-box" marketing clout to bear. They will do so.

Once this starts to happen the price-fixing will collapse, there will be real competition in the consumer marketplace, and LP's advantage will slip to a significant degree. It won't disappear, simply due to their volume, but it will diminish.

Many local shops will fold, unable to provide value when they can't hide behind "the nasty manufacturer won't let me discount that regulator" excuse any more, and lacking any cogent business plan in the first place - having grown from some diver's desire to get his fills and hardware "for free" rather than to be in a business and make a profit.

Some others will decide to do only training and fills, eschewing the sale of hardware entirely, correctly deducing that there is a market for such a thing in an honest environment. Others will decide to get out of the fill and training business and sell only hardware, getting rid of the insurance problems and attempting to become the boutique store, probably for higher-end products and those where superior customer service really does have some value (e.g. drysuits) - where, for example, being able to go in and get seals replaced in an hour is worth something.

The result will be a far more balanced business environment and a much cleaner, and more honest, environment for the diver at large. You will pay a fair - not cross-subsidized via a hidden mechanism - price for your training. You will pay a fair price for your fills. If you dive frequently, owning a compressor may make sense, especially if you have a few friends who want to go in on one. If you want hardware, but don't want (more) training, you will not be subsidizing some dealer's training program for SOMEONE ELSE with your equipment purchases. I will no longer be expected to subsidize my LDS's OW classes - which have no benefit to me - the "puppy mill" mentality will go away.

Finally, the lies in the LDS will cease - there will no longer be any purpose to them.
 
LP does offer most of the same services that you offer Mike, they do have a showroom. You can send your equipment to them for service. Their model will last and will thrive because they will never put all dive shops out of business, just the ones that probably shouldn't be in business anyway. I think you'll find that most divers understand they need to support their lds and will do so if the lds meets in the middle with the customer. Those that don't, go out of business and those that do will have a devoted customer. I've never bought anything from leisurepro and my lds sucks. They sell all their scubapro stuff at the exact same prices in the catalog... which is overpriced. I also haven't bought anything from them. If they compromise and come off their "retail price" or better yet, come to some agreement with service parts, then I'll be a happy, supportive customer. This lds is SSI and I take classes from the PADI lds in town which is only a sherwood dealer. Scubapro, according to the sherwood lds won't let him be a dealer for scubapro since there is already scubapro dealer in town. This is a town of 130,000+ with two dive shops. Scubapro is losing a lot of business to sherwood for no reason if this lds is right. Also, if you're not making any money as a dealer, why worry about losing your dealership? Take a chance and give yourself a fighting chance. You think Microsoft got where they are by playing strictly by the rules? Manufactures know you're gonna at least bend the rules Mike, thats why they make them sound tougher than they are. They know you're gonna sell service kits to your buddies and give your buddies price breaks. They just want to keep you close overall.
 
Genesis, you are barking up the wrong tree. I believe that there is a legal way to obtain parts kits. If someone sells you something they have to sell you parts to fix it. Not 100% sure about this, but heard it somewhere. I'm not a lawyer.

The problem is that it's way less hassle to take your regs to the lds, have them throw a parts kit in there, take it home, tear it down an put it back together to make sure it's right. Or just ferret out a parts kit by hook or by crook.

But you seem to have very strong feelings about this... if you did sue to get parts I'd be more than happy to join..just not financially ;-)
 
I like my LDS a lot. It is run by a father and son who love to dive and are serious divers (all the deep deco trips you can stand). I don't actually know what their official policy on parts is, but they have sold me parts before. Except for the occasional sale the prices on gear are in the 10% to 20% off range, which is still fairly steep. I often shop ebay for big ticket items. This LDS does a lot of trips and a lot of training, which is where they make most of their money. The compressor is running almost everytime I go in and they do trimix etc. I don't think they are getting rich but they enjoy the life.
As to capitalism--most of us cannot charge more than market just because we are "good people". If we provide a service with greater skill, speed, or integrity than normal we may command premere prices. If I am selling widgets, just like the widgets down the street, it is hard to tell people they should pay more to get them from me because I'm a good guy. Why "contribute" extra money to me, in effect taking it away from their own families. I don't see a great future for dive shops, not if they depend on equipment sales and rebuilds. There isn't 1 customer in 100 that even thinks that maybe some operators do more meticulous rebuilds than others. Price is paramount until you have a serious event due to sloppy work (which is rare). As to the question about selling parts kits, I would be greatly surprised if DIY'ers had any measurable effect on the bottom line of dive shops. This forum is clearly not a cross section the diving public. Most people here are just a bit more engaged, more curious than most and even here how many do their own rebuilds? Most of us here want to KNOW, at least in theory, how to do it but not necessarily rebuild our own stuff. I was a mechanic at one point in my life but I don't even change my own oil anymore! Point is, DIY'ers are the least of the LDS's problems. As a manufacturer, I may conclude that amateurs working on their own gear may create more liability. Somebody dies and it either never comes to light that he "did" his own regulator or, more likely, the jury doesn't care-- just stick it to the deep pockets manufacturer. It is only an opinion, but my guess is that almost all divers who would consider rebuilding their own regulators are the kind of people who will be able to do it as good or better than the "average" LDS tech. They won't be as fast and will spend time pumping all the info they can from whatever sources they can find. Is that not what happens every day on this forum?
 

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