Regulator servicing... everyone that's not a tech, vote...

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis,
Why don't you find a source for Aqualung parts and service info. I will buy from you. I will even (for a cut) let you use my building, advertisement and so on to sell parts to divers. Organize divers to put pressure on Aqualung. I have never spent A single dollar on Aqualung merchandise so they don't care what I do.

I don't have time or money to play Jimmy Hoffa and organize the LDS owners of the world. We're tapped out. Dive shops won't organize just like mainstream training will not improve. You have heard of DEMA. Most LDS's belong. We don't. I would cut off my right arm before I joined DEMA.


LP is rolling in cash why don't they organize against the manufacturers to stand up for your rights. They have resources that we don't.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
is whatever you can get people to willingly pay in a freely-competitive, non-price-controlled, marketplace.

The simple fact of the matter, Mike, is that dive shops are the ones with the ability to fix this - if they want to. They can organize. They can make a stink. They can get together with others in other lines of work where such tactics are used (car audio being one - see Fosgate's "agreements" for an example of the same kind of thing) and go after their legislators to demand that this conduct by SPECIFICALLY legislated out of existance.

You say you can't get two shops to agree on anything. But there you're wrong too - you agree on THIS! You both are signing the same agreements, even if you're not in the same room. Obviously, just by conduct, there are points on which you agree.

THAT agreement is what I see.....

You are right it is not a freely competitive market. Outfits like LP have a source of merchandise that I don't. There is no competition. I am locked out of the market totally. I think it is close to a monopoly of sorts.

Diveshops sign dealor agreements because otherwise your not a dive shop. As soon as we figure out where LP gets their stuff we will tell the manufacturer to go jump and get it from the new source.

If dive shops got together and avoided certain manufacturers all we would do is give LP the remaining market share. They would just pick up the sales that LDS's would be pushing away. We would cut our own throat and occomplish nothing. When it comes to equipment sales the LDS (with the exception of some giant chains) are not a factor. We could ban together and close and the manufacturers would still sell through LP. You would still be buying SP regs from LP.

I believe it is you and LP who have the power.

 

[redacted]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I lose a bunch on the fact I can't service Aqualung regs. Suppose you find a reliable source of parts and up to date service info and sell them to me so I don't have to turn all these folks away. If you can't find a source why don't you apply pressure to Aqualung to open things up. I have been talking to them for years and they don't care. I refuse to do other business with them and they don't care. I am too small and they don't care.

Same with Scuba Pro, If you folks are so dead set against these practices why take it out on the LDS who is powerless? Why don't you stop being a hypocrite and use your power as a consumer to tell them what you want. You reward them. You are in a position of greater power than I am. Your whining about a problem you dont even have. You already have your cake and eat it too.

Speaking of Aqualung, I noticed yesterday that Diveinn is now offering a selection of Aqualung service kits. I'm not sure if it is going the same way as their Apeks and Scubapro kits, but the window of opportunity is open. As long as these cracks keep showing up, there is hope.

And Mike, I understand that an individual dive shop is a small voice. But it is still a hell of a lot bigger than individual divers. The trouble now seems to be that most LDSs are chiming in with the manufacturer rather than ther "rebel" divers. And I understand that also. What little butter the LDS is getting on its bread is not coming from people like myself and Genesis. It's the new and LDS dependent divers and their network of instructors, divemasters, and groupies that are keeping them operating. But the Leisurepro's and Diveinn's are expanding and growing. They seem to be having more and more effects on LDSs. And from what I can see, the LDS responses are just adding more water to the moat. Not very effective. LDSs who have a realistic vision of the future, and change to meet the challange and grow their customer base will survive and prosper. That's what successful businesses do. Good Luck.

 

[TCDiver1]

it is relevant. Last time i checked, charging more for a product or service than what it costs you, pays the bills and hopefully puts some profit in your pocket so your business will be around in the future. No profit and sooner or later it's bye bye business. Few new business owners truely understand this or you wouldn't see the majority of new businesses failing consistantly over time.

Once more with feeling Genesis, i don't own a dive shop, i'm not one of "those guys." And i never called you a hypocrite, you must be thinking of someone else. I simply pointed out that you are clueless as to what the costs of running a dive shop are.

I can only quess that you think because you ran an unrelated business that you feel qualified to tell everyone in the dive business they are the ones that are clueless. You shouldn't be surprised, if you read my posts, that i agree with you at some level on this topic. I believe most manufacturer pricing policies are too restrictive to provide for a true free market type of business. I believe most of these policies are set up like that for more than the get rich quick theory your pushing.

Back to why most new businesses fail. In my business (construction by the way), 2 out of three new businesses fail. The reasons are plentiful but the single biggest one is that they don't understand what being in business truely costs. If they do, they often think they need work, more than they need to actually make money doing the work. In other words they bid and get jobs for less than they KNOW their cost is. You can only operate so long with more going out than is coming in. It's amazing, but few people truely understand this, e.g. my example of the 3 dollar air fills.

With that said, in my experience, few people who start dive shops truely understand the business side of running that LDS. Owning a LDS or teaching scuba is far less glamorous than most peoples fantasies of doing so. That should be very apparent to anyone who has been diving for awhile. I suspect the manufacturers know this and have built some protection into their pricing structure.

I know this theory doesn't support your crusade or would most people agree that it is a good way to do business but a truely knowledgable LDS owner will understand they can't hang their hat on this pricing structure. They will understand that good service is everything in todays economy and find a way to make the pricing structure valid in the customers mind. Provide something above and beyond that will be of value to the customer. Far too many LDS owners don't understand this and IMO is one of the reasons manufacturers price the way they do. Artificially protecting the LDS owner from themselves. JMO

No Genesis, lumping all LDS's togeather as having the same costs and business practices is as silly as manufacturers who have restrictive pricing policies. And in the litigous environment we live in, it should surprise no one when manufacturers don't sell parts to just anyone.

 

[jamiei]

guys... this isn't what this thread is about... at all...

 

[MikeFerrara]

awap once bubbled...


Speaking of Aqualung, I noticed yesterday that Diveinn is now offering a selection of Aqualung service kits. I'm not sure if it is going the same way as their Apeks and Scubapro kits, but the window of opportunity is open. As long as these cracks keep showing up, there is hope.

And Mike, I understand that an individual dive shop is a small voice. But it is still a hell of a lot bigger than individual divers. The trouble now seems to be that most LDSs are chiming in with the manufacturer rather than ther "rebel" divers. And I understand that also. What little butter the LDS is getting on its bread is not coming from people like myself and Genesis. It's the new and LDS dependent divers and their network of instructors, divemasters, and groupies that are keeping them operating. But the Leisurepro's and Diveinn's are expanding and growing. They seem to be having more and more effects on LDSs. And from what I can see, the LDS responses are just adding more water to the moat. Not very effective. LDSs who have a realistic vision of the future, and change to meet the challange and grow their customer base will survive and prosper. That's what successful businesses do. Good Luck.

Here is what I sell. Not what I am a dealer for but what I actually sell. Zeagle regs, Halcyon, Cressi (masks and fins) H2odyssy masks and odds and ends.

All it would take for Zeagle or Halcyon to close me down would be a phone call telling me I was off their list. We have refused to do business with most of the others and I have no clout with any of them. I don't sell enough Zeagle or Halcyon for them to care if I come or go. I need them they don't need me.

 

[MikeFerrara]

jamiei once bubbled...
guys... this isn't what this thread is about... at all...

it is now

 

[jamiei]

Mike, do you just not sell anything at all? thats what it sounds like to me. It also sounds like there's not much demand for a dive shop in your area. Either that or people are going somewhere else. Did you really look at the all the factors involved before you started up your dive business? You can't blame a failed business on anyone but the business owner. You can't sell snow ski's in jamaica... It seems you made a bad call when deciding to put "everything you had" into this business. It's not the consumer or the supplier thats at fault. You can't have a successful business when there's no demand. Just doesn't work that way. You should have known that it wouldn't work before you even got started. If you made a complete business plan in the beginning, you would have known then what you know now.
There's two shops in my town of 130,000 people. They don't do much business, but they both have other businesses to help themselves out. Why should I pay higher prices to make up for the fact that they don't do enough business? What do they have to offer me? I can travel 45 miles and have dozens of shops that do a lot of business and don't charge as much... And I know what you're thinking Mike, and yes I'll drive 45 minutes for a tank of air when both my ldss go out of business... its on the way anyway. In a few years, i plan on buying my own personal compressor anyway and at $3 or $4 k, it will eventually pay for itself. I'm not really worried about it. Besides, maybe I'll have a gas powered unit I can mount on my boat. So, basically what I'm saying is this... maybe 20 years ago, a lds may have had me by the short hairs but not anymore and it's funny how the lds doesn't seem to get that yet. Shops in dive destinations will always be there and will always thrive. Shops in the middle of nowhere need to reevaluate things and see that there is no inherent demand for their existance that is great enough to warrant a shop. I'm sure someone in jamaica would love to have a ski shop in town, but would it make it? If they are dead set on having a dive shop, they have to go the extra mile and put themselves in demand. It is true that you could have the best shop and be the best guy around mike, I don't doubt that but just because you open a shop doesn't mean you're guaranteed to make squat. If you want to actually make money doing it, move somewhere else. I think that you got into it more to satisfy your own needs and desires Mike. I make this assumption based on things you have said in the past like comments about you would rather go cave diving on the weekend that teach a class anyway. Those classes pay for you to go cave diving and you have to do them and take every opportunity you can to make whatever amount of money you can. Thats what having your own business is about. It's not about saying, well, if I'm not gonna make $x and hour then I'm not gonna do it. Sometimes I make $50 and hour and sometimes I work for free Mike. Thats my business. I accept it and know that even while I may not be making a dime on something, I know that that person will recommend me to someone else and that'll be the job I make $50 and hour on. And one last thing, I am a contractor and there is a demand for my services. I would never think about opening up a boat dealership here in my town because I wouldn't make any money. There are plenty of lakes within 45 miles, but the dealerships at the lakes make the money. I just wouldn't have enough business to make it and people don't mind traveling to the lake to have their boat worked on or to buy a new one.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I made one flawed assumption prior to opening a shop. That was assuming that what I found desireable in a shop was what others would value also. The shops that make money around here are as I described in an earlier post. The fact is I don't make money in recreational diving because I don't like it. I will not offer the kind of class that makes money. I will do retail in a way that will make money. There is little market for diving. The market is for underwater tourism. That isn't wrong it just isn't something we're interested in.

 

[Former FLL Now MSP Diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
There is little market for diving. The market is for underwater tourism. That isn't wrong it just isn't something we're interested in.

Mike - I've followed this and other similar threads with interest, and have always respected your opinion and support of the LDS. However this comment does say it all. If you know you're providing a service that there's no market for, then I respectively submit that any problems you have making ends meet are strictly self imposed. I know in my business that we've had to change how we operate, and pricing is no where near where it was two years ago.

Adapt or die.

Marc