Regulator servicing... everyone that's not a tech, vote...

If you work on your own regs and are not a tech, would you take the courses?

  • Yes, I would love to... a good diver learns as much as he/she can and doesn't put their safety in ot

    Votes: 98 81.7%
  • No, i know enough and have sources for parts

    Votes: 5 4.2%
  • No, who needs it? Safety Smaftey (this is what the people that select the option below think we are

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • I'm one of the "let the techs do it" so i shouldn't be voting anyway

    Votes: 16 13.3%

  • Total voters
    120
  • Poll closed .

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Like all other threads about regs you guys aint got a clue so I'll give it to you. The only ones the manufacturers are trying to protect is themselves. They don't want to force your dependancy on YOUR lds. They want to force you to make at least one trip per year to a lds that sells their products. This is why I can't service a brand that I don't sell. It's that simple.

I am sending some of my customers to a Zeagle repair class. They still won't be able to buy parts from the manufacturer. Manufacturers only sell to dealers or distributors (who sell to dealers). In order to attend a shop (who is a dealer) must send them as an employee.
 
Like all other threads about regs you guys aint got a clue so I'll give it to you. The only ones the manufacturers are trying to protect is themselves. They don't want to force your dependancy on YOUR lds. They want to force you to make at least one trip per year to a lds that sells their products. This is why I can't service a brand that I don't sell. It's that simple.

So who's side are you on here Mike? And more generically, who's side is the shop - generically - on?

If its not mine, as a customer, then you've destroyed the basis of my loyalty to the shop. Which will go an awfully long way towards insuring that I will buy my gear from the lowest-priced seller, since I have no reason to maintain loyalty to someone who is cavorting with others to stab me in my wallet.

I know its a common dodge to say "we can't do anything about it; its all forced down our throats."

Unfortunately that's simply not true, which adds intentional deception to the list, and further damages the case for shop loyalty.

I know you and I disagree on much of this Mike. But the fact remains that there are multiple ways to skin this cat, and it would not take many shops to bring down the house of cards. Just look at what ONE - LeisurePro - has done to the retail marketplace for scuba equipment. They have DECIMATED the retail environment. And they're just ONE lonely shop in New York - one of the most punitive and high-cost environments possible to do business in the United States.

So, faced with this reality, it would appear you have a few choices to make.

You can "give up" and leave the market, of course. That's always an option, and a valid one at that.

Or you can continue, as many other shops have, to cling to a failed model and one that drives customers away. Some will stay, begrudgingly, sold on your view of "need". They'll stay not 'cause they want to, but because they believe they must. That's a real nice co-dependant relationship you're fostering there, eh?

Or finally, you can find ways to change what is there, into a sustainable business for you and a band of loyal customers working with you.

Reality is that the second choice is one you can't succeed at. LP is not going away Mike. They will be cloned, just as it was in the photography business. There was originally one NY "gray market" camera store. 42nd street photo, if I remember correctly.

Today there are dozens.

25 years ago I saw this same thing in the camera business. I was a "high end" consumer; had my own darkroom (color even!) and did my own work end to end. I bought a LOT of photography gear and supplies. Thousands of dollars worth annually. As a kid at the time, this was my "big ticket" recreational expense - and big it was for someone my age and with my income.

Time came for me to replace my aging Minolta XG-1; I wanted a faster motor drive than it could accomodate. I started shopping for a newer model, and found a tightly-price-controlled market in the local shops. I was told the same story - no sales below some percentage off retail, or the shop would lose its dealership.

I refused to play. I bought my new camera from a NY mail order shop. The Leisurepros of the Camera world (you DO know they own a camera shop too, right?)

Well, the local camera store got rather upset with me over this when the owner found out, as he did when I came in to buy some new filters for that camera. They thought I was some kind of traitor and made quite a bit of noise about how they wouldn't service my purchase because I hadn't given them their holy mark-up. I was insulted. Greatly.

I never set foot in that store again.

The camera never needed service. I eventually sold it, in perfectly good working order, and bought yet a third SLR. The third one sits in my camera bag to this day - it still works great.

Where they missed the boat is that the camera was just one piece of kit I needed. I also needed film, paper and chemicals, and all three were consumables. Lots of all three, in fact. And there they found their downfall, because I shifted my purchases of THOSE items to mail order too. Over the next two years more than two dozen bulk spools of Tri-X and Kodacolor were mail-ordered, along with box after box of paper and chemicals. The store that insulted me saw exactly NONE of that business. I found that not only was the mail order system reliable, getting product to me in just a few days, it was 30% or more cheaper than the local store. The savings were considerable, but the savings weren't why I switched.

It was attitude Mike.

A few years later the store closed for lack of business.

Obviously, I wasn't the only one driven away.

It didn't have to happen that way.

In being nasty about a camera and lens purchase, and supporting a price-fixing scheme dreamed up by manufacturers and distributors, instead of supporting the customer, they lost not only the camera sale but ALL of the sales from me. The result?

They're gone, and so are virtually all of the others like them.

Learn from history.

Or repeat it.

Your choice Mike.
 
Genesis,

The photography mail order business back then was alot less clean than it is today. Since I live in NYC, I was able to visit all those stores to pick up the items personally. I either was told the item wasn't in stock and they have another item, or the price is not valid anymore. Many times these were after I called them and verified the price and availability of the item. Once, armed with the photo rag, I walked all over the city trying to find a 24mm f2 lens for their advertised price. I could not find anyone willing to sell it to me. I eventually happened to pass by this store that wasn't on my list and got the lens for less than any of the price listed on the photograph magazine.

And product returns/exchanges were always a real pain in the ass. One place, after much back and forth exchange about a return, gave me credit in films only.

I didn't have issues with repairs, since Canon USA was right outside the NYC border, and I just brought my camera there for the one time I needed repair.

My local photograph shop was Spiratone, whom sold wierd gadgets along with all the stuff necessarily for the hobbyst like bulk film, bulk loader, paper, chemicals... They were also a mail order, but not the cut-throat type. So there was alot of hanging out in the shop and yapping with the owner w/o getting the high pressure sales pitch or the 30 customers lined up with 10 salesmen, as is customary in the other camera shops.


Even the other day, I went to LP to pick up a item being promoted. They told me it was internet only, but after a bit of checking, they let me take the floor unit.
 
Since most of the manufacturers refuse to do business with LP what they do is pay others to break their agreements and order for them. And some of these shops are hurting bad enough to sell out rather cheaply. I don't think I would hold them up as an ethics model.
 
but I know some people did. Fortunately I didn't need 10 cameras, so one good deal was enough for me :)

The Internet has made most of the game-playing very difficult to accomplish. Since nearly all purchases are made with credit cards, if there's a problem like this you simply don't complete the order or, if shipped something else in an attempt to blatently rob you the solution is a letter and call to the card issuer, who will promptly credit your card back and make the seller deal with it that way.

At least in the Scuba marketplace with LP, the customer service is far superior to what I've found in the local LDS arena. I had a friend of mine in the market for a wetsuit who wasn't sure which size to order. She called them; they recommended that she order TWO and send back the one that didn't fit right! She did, sent the other one back, had no problem doing so (the RMA was already in the box!) and other than the shipping back it cost her nothing extra to do it that way.

Oh, she also saved at least HALF over what she could have bought that same suit for in a LDS..

I'm in the market for a drysuit. Nobody has them in stock, except one local shop who has two USED ones they used for a class, and which they "generously" offered me a whole $100 or so off list on. They're STILL making $500 or so on that suit, PLUS they made the rental charges for the class on those same suits! Oh yeah, they're last year's (2001!) models too - the manufacturer doesn't even show them in their current catalog. The others? They think they should be able to make 100% mark-ups with no stock and with me eating the restocking charge on returns (20%, in the case of DUI) if their measurements (in their shop!) don't result in a good fit. What are they smoking? I can order the suit from LP, and if I don't like the fit simply send it back. No restocking charge there - yeah, I eat the shipping. So what? Compared to a $200 restocking charge on a $1,000 suit the shipping is peanuts.

Why are the LDSs losing equipment sales? That kind of "customer service" is why....
 
Since most of the manufacturers refuse to do business with LP what they do is pay others to break their agreements and order for them. And some of these shops are hurting bad enough to sell out rather cheaply. I don't think I would hold them up as an ethics model.

You're not going to get me to believe that, not when you tell me that LP is selling at $10 over cost, or even, in some cases, under dealer cost. You have said that more than once here.

What would be the point of such an arrangement with "the devil"? Certainly not profit. Any "incentive" that LP offers would mean they couldn't sell at a profit at all - which they pretty clearly are, or they wouldn't still be in business.

I'll bet most of the manufacturers are indeed doing business with LP.

Directly.

Its the only way that the prices they sell at actually "work" with them making a profit - which they obviously do, or they wouldn't remain in business.

Consider that the typical "volume" discount in distribution is in the 10-30% range (depending on order size) and suddenly LPs model makes perfect sense. They're buying fro the manufacturers and distributors directly and using volume discounts to acquire their product, then assigning a flat fixed-percentage markup (probably 25-30%) to that. A time-tested, perfectly-valid retail model. And Mike - you and I both know that LP does stock an awful lot of product. They clearly do have all the products in question - and have the storefront expenses along with them.

The remainder of their product I'll wager comes from overseas where the EU actually enforces anti-trust law and "first sale" doctrine actually means something (unlike here)

Finally, one of the basic principles of free markets is that they are free. That the only legitimate control over resale price for you, as a manufacturer or distributor, should be through what you sell the product for originally. That should be the beginning and end of your ability and right to control resale price.

If you believe that to be true, and I do, then any act taken to restrain resale prices beyond that is one that deserves no respect. Ergo, there is no ethics issue to raise.

Nice try.
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Since most of the manufacturers refuse to do business with LP what they do is pay others to break their agreements and order for them. And some of these shops are hurting bad enough to sell out rather cheaply. I don't think I would hold them up as an ethics model.

Are they lieing, cheating, or stealing? Are you suggesting that they are somehow taking unfair advantage of LDSs? Is it unethical to murder the competition by satisfying customers? Seems to me they have found a way to thumb their noses at the Scuba industry giants and satisfy customers with good selection and stockage, and prices that are in a league of their own.

And, somehow, I find it hard to believe that failing LDSs are the source of their merchandise. Based on the multi-lingual manuals that often come with their stuff, I believe much of their stock comes from Europe. I'm sure the manufacturer could tell us exactly what is going on. So why do you think he doesn't?

I wonder how Leisurepro protects itself from liabilities? Makes me think that the liabilities line is another Scuba industry myth that serves to coerce the customer (and probably the poor LDS also).
 
the same way that every other corporation does.

There is no "special risk" involved here. In fact, LP doesn't even require that you provide them proof of a C-card - I've never been asked for one, and one of my dive buddies, who bought a complete kit from them, including regs, gauges and a computer, was not asked either.

So much for the claims.

(BTW, I already explained in another thread how to avoid the problem of insurance companies not liking you. Its called separate corporatons. Not (really) a problem. An hour with any good corporate attorney can explain how its done.)
 
Genesis once bubbled...


You're not going to get me to believe that, not when you tell me that LP is selling at $10 over cost, or even, in some cases, under dealer cost. You have said that more than once here.

What would be the point of such an arrangement with "the devil"? Certainly not profit. Any "incentive" that LP offers would mean they couldn't sell at a profit at all - which they pretty clearly are, or they wouldn't still be in business.

I'll bet most of the manufacturers are indeed doing business with LP.

Directly.

Its the only way that the prices they sell at actually "work" with them making a profit - which they obviously do, or they wouldn't remain in business.

Consider that the typical "volume" discount in distribution is in the 10-30% range (depending on order size) and suddenly LPs model makes perfect sense. They're buying fro the manufacturers and distributors directly and using volume discounts to acquire their product, then assigning a flat fixed-percentage markup (probably 25-30%) to that. A time-tested, perfectly-valid retail model. And Mike - you and I both know that LP does stock an awful lot of product. They clearly do have all the products in question - and have the storefront expenses along with them.

The remainder of their product I'll wager comes from overseas where the EU actually enforces anti-trust law and "first sale" doctrine actually means something (unlike here)

Finally, one of the basic principles of free markets is that they are free. That the only legitimate control over resale price for you, as a manufacturer or distributor, should be through what you sell the product for originally. That should be the beginning and end of your ability and right to control resale price.

If you believe that to be true, and I do, then any act taken to restrain resale prices beyond that is one that deserves no respect. Ergo, there is no ethics issue to raise.

Nice try.

You go ahead and believe that if you want. I have information to the contrary. I have also had people (not LP) but the same type of businesses and ask me to do the same thing. It is simple If I buy alot more my price goes down (within given structure) they pay me a flat fee to buy for them. The end up paying me pennies per piece. They add alittle mark up and sell. You do thjis a few times and you get product even cheaper. You build a name and the stuff sells faster and your money turns around faster and the risk goes down. By the time the manufacturer nails the shop doing it and pulls their dealership LP has found a couple more. It's a loosing battle for us and the manufacturer.
 
awap once bubbled...


Are they lieing, cheating, or stealing? Are you suggesting that they are somehow taking unfair advantage of LDSs? Is it unethical to murder the competition by satisfying customers? Seems to me they have found a way to thumb their noses at the Scuba industry giants and satisfy customers with good selection and stockage, and prices that are in a league of their own.

And, somehow, I find it hard to believe that failing LDSs are the source of their merchandise. Based on the multi-lingual manuals that often come with their stuff, I believe much of their stock comes from Europe. I'm sure the manufacturer could tell us exactly what is going on. So why do you think he doesn't?

I wonder how Leisurepro protects itself from liabilities? Makes me think that the liabilities line is another Scuba industry myth that serves to coerce the customer (and probably the poor LDS also).

No they are not lieing or cheating. They are paying others to lie (as in break agreements they have willingly made.

The prices are only good because we are paying for the rest. I pay to start people diving (businesses like mine create their market). I pay to fill their tanks (notice these guys dont fill air, nitrox, argon, trimix). That costs a ton of cash for which there is no return. I stand here and answer divers questions then when they are satisfied they go place an order with LP.

When we stop doing all this LP will have to do it and prices will go up. New divers buy most of the gear and we make new divers for free. That will stop.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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