Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[CT-Rich]

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Interesting. PADI's philosophy seems to be to make diving as accessible to the masses as possible. Asking every newly certified diver to buy and use a pony bottle, and encouraging dive centers around the world to rent pony bottles as part of their standard package, all so that the pony would be there at the ready in the rare case of buddy separation, seems a lot more burdensome than instilling good buddy practices. The 800-pound gorilla of dive training known as PADI may be an easy target for derision, but their system does seem to be sufficient to keep the vast majority of people who consider themselves to be PADI divers safe. I can take off my Captain Obvious cape now.

Traditional recreational diving is a pretty safe activity. Some people like the security of wearing a belt and suspenders. I have had a few dives go sideways, but never had an OOA situation. Generally speaking those are usually the result of user error and not equipment failures. O rings fail, hoses fails, people don’t know how to tune their gear. I have been on a charter in NJ where they wanted everyone diving with a pony (a hard bottom of 60’).

There is a certain romance of painting diving as an extreme sport. It can be, but only in the same way as bicycle riding is. If you are going on the bike trail for scenery and exercise, wear a helmet and you will be fine. If you are going off road down a ski slope, additional training and equipment may be necessary. Taking a $2,500 BMX bike on the local bike path isn’t going to harm anyone and neither is taking a pony.

 

[scubaozy]

Using pony for buddy separation scenario is normalization of deviance. We all learned what to do in our training for this scenario. It should not matter whether you have pony or octopus. I personally highly doubt that Naui had pony as mandatory equipment, it could be perhaps regional choice at that location/time. Pony brings economical, logistical challenges into the picture, thus it is much less common.
What is being discussed here is "social solo diving".

 

[Lorenzoid]

@CT-Rich , the question, in my mind, is not whether a pony could prevent a dive from going sideways but how best to balance the benefit and burden. I am definitely a belt-and-suspenders guy, but I find the "suspenders"--a pony--to be more of a burden than needed to address a very rare event, so I address the same problem with a buddy, which is how PADI teaches the world to dive. If the circa-1994 NAUI system that @BoatingDave mentioned had become the predominant system, I would probably be using a pony today instead of relying on a buddy. I do believe it's best to choose a system and stick with it, though. The idea of diving with a buddy and with a pony and not being absolutely sure of a procedure for utilizing both resources doesn't sit well with me. Maybe NAUI had that all laid out, but it's apparently been lost to time.

I don't know what I would do if I were looking at the NJ charter that insisted on a pony. Maybe I would interpret that as meaning they believe it's a more challenging dive than it may appear, and I would take my doubles.

I'd love to run with your bike analogy, but I don't know what to do with it. Maybe a $2500 BMX bike and protective wear is analogous to doubles rather than a single tank and pony. I dunno.

 

[Cio]

I find it amazing there are people here that think a buddy is better than a pony bottle....
A pony is attached to you, always there, buddies are human, prone to making mistakes, the argument that they should be there is not an assumption one should bet their life on. A redundant tank and reg, attached to you is something you can bet your life on.

SCUBA is the only sport I can think of where people typically participate without 100% reliable redundant life support items. (a buddy is not this) It's madness if you think about it, madness supported by the simple fact that SCUBA equipment, even crappie rentals are incredibly reliable and and fail to safe conditions are the overwhelmingly the norm. Pair that with the fact that most NDL dives can be aborted with an ascent that will not likely leave the diver seriously injured and you have enough reasoning for the industry to suggest that diving with a single life support system is actually a good idea. Don't anyone fool themselves into thinking a buddy is better insurance that actual hardware attached to your body.

I always dive with a redundant system, blue water gets a 13 cu ft pony, its barley noticeable and will work fine for NDL warm water diving emergencies. I can't say that NDL blue water diving absolutely requires a redundant air source, you can, after all, just dart to the surface in a worst case scenario (you'll live). But it sure seems to make sense to have a redundant supply to be able make a proper ascent while being calm and comfortable during that emergency.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I find it amazing there are people here that think a buddy is better than a pony bottle....
A pony is attached to you, always there, buddies are human, prone to making mistakes, the argument that they should be there is not an assumption one should bet their life on. A redundant tank and reg, attached to you is something you can bet your life on.

There's an adage that the one thing you can't provide redundancy for with equipment is the human brain. Your buddy can be there to double-check you, to make sure that once they donate the reg to you, you're breathing, calm, and ready to ascend together. Your buddy might even be able to spot a problem before it happens, such as noticing that an o-ring or hose is bubbling. Now, maybe you advocate a buddy AND a pony bottle, but if we're going to go that route I believe we need very specific procedures for how to utilize both those resources, so there is no fumbling in the event of an out-of-air situation. Not everyone who carries a pony and dives with a buddy seems to have those ducks in a row.

 

[Cio]

There's an adage that the one thing you can't provide redundancy for with equipment is the human brain. Your buddy can be there to double-check you, to make sure that once they donate the reg to you, you're breathing, calm, and ready to ascend together. Your buddy might even be able to spot a problem before it happens, such as noticing that an o-ring or hose is bubbling. Now, maybe you advocate a buddy AND a pony bottle, but if we're going to go that route I believe we need very specific procedures for how to utilize both those resources, so there is no fumbling in the event of an out-of-air situation. Not everyone who carries a pony and dives with a buddy seems to have those ducks in a row.

O-ring bubbling isn't a reason to call a dive, more often than not, rental users have some small streams of bubbles coming from behind them, its generally not enough air to be a concern. Hoses which are almost failing are bubbled or cracked and easily identified on the surface, a buddy to identify this underwater is not really a solution to poor equipment inspection practices. (IMO)

Redundant brains don't work for me, if I die diving, its my fault. Self reliance and ownership of the responsibility for your life should be a core understanding for all divers. With this in mind, I'll choose hardware over humans any day, hardware is far more reliable. Not to say one shouldn't even consider the existence of a buddy but a buddy should be seen as a resource which is not as reliable as hardware and should be utilized after switching air sources to make up for the lack of redundancy. (assuming you have a pony and are diving with a buddy)

Divers not understanding what to do is a real thing but this applies with or without a pony. Divers without their ducks in a row is not a reason for or against a pony, its an argument for basic training requirements. The floundering diver is everywhere. (unfortunately)

Full disclosure, I dive in NJ, buddy teams are not normal here, a full boat will have 2-3 teams maybe, and they typically split up for part of their dives anyway. If you are taught advanced here you will be required to have a pony and you will be told that the diving , not in the class but after, will be solo and you should be prepared for that. I prefer it that way, so clearly I'm biased, but I do think everyone should dive redundant, buddy or not, its just smart.

I can respect the stance of, I'll emergency ascend, if you understand the risk and accept it, go for it. However, I don't really accept the stance of, my buddy is my redundant air source, not reliable enough for me.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Considering how poorly trained many divers are, I think an extra brain from an insta buddy makes things worse.

 

[boulderjohn]

Interestingly, when I first certified, NAUI (back in 1994) we were taught to use a pony bottle and had to carry them on rec dives.

It is interesting to me that people in this thread assume that because Boating Dave experienced something in his personal NAUI class, it must have been standard for all NAUI classes. I have been an active participant in threads like this for more than 17 years on ScubaBoard, and this is the first time I have ever heard of a pony bottle being part of OW training for any agency at any time. NAUI is often celebrating in these threads for allowing individual instructors to teach pretty much whatever they want in addition to the required standards. Unless someone can point to the existence of some sort of NAUI training manual from that era indicating that teaching pony bottles was standard, I will assume that this was a quirk of one instructor.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

O-ring bubbling isn't a reason to call a dive, more often than not, rental users have some small streams of bubbles coming from behind them, its generally not enough air to be a concern. Hoses which are almost failing are bubbled or cracked and easily identified on the surface, a buddy to identify this underwater is not really a solution to poor equipment inspection practices. (IMO)

I remember the first time I had this issue. It was a night dive off PDC and I was a new diver (40ish dives). The cylinders were waiting for us on the boat. Mine had a bad o-ring, but I couldn't tell on the boat due to noise and no light. I figured it out underwater. I did inform the DM, shining my light on the bubble stream, who shrugged. My girlfriend at the time and I just continued until I was almost out of air. At the surface, I heard this "psss" with my SPG going from 300 psi to 0. The boat then picked us up.

 

[Lorenzoid]

O-ring bubbling isn't a reason to call a dive, more often than not, rental users have some small streams of bubbles coming from behind them, its generally not enough air to be a concern. Hoses which are almost failing are bubbled or cracked and easily identified on the surface, a buddy to identify this underwater is not really a solution to poor equipment inspection practices. (IMO)

I think it depends on the dive. In an earlier post @CT-Rich pointed out that a pony isn't needed for dives like a 40-ft bimble on a tropical reef. Rather, a pony, if used, would be for something more challenging than that. On a more challenging dive like that, I would call the dive if I saw my buddy's o-ring bubbling or any of a variety of other things that were just not quite right. All it takes is a couple of minor things to start the snowball effect or incident pit or whatever we call it. None of this replaces good equipment inspection practices but rather is in addition to that.

Redundant brains don't work for me, if I die diving, its my fault. Self reliance and ownership of the responsibility for your life should be a core understanding for all divers. With this in mind, I'll choose hardware over humans any day, hardware is far more reliable. Not to say one shouldn't even consider the existence of a buddy but a buddy should be seen as a resource which is not as reliable as hardware and should be utilized after switching air sources to make up for the lack of redundancy. (assuming you have a pony and are diving with a buddy)

I opined upthread that there's nothing wrong with diving in self-reliant mode, and if that includes a pony, great. What bothers me is the possibility that mixing buddy diving and pony diving can lead to indecision or poorly ingrained muscle memory. You seem to be implying a protocol of utilizing the buddy after switching air sources, and maybe that would work--I don't know. But if that's the protocol, then both buddies need to be trained in it.

Divers not understanding what to do is a real thing but this applies with or without a pony. Divers without their ducks in a row is not a reason for or against a pony, its an argument for basic training requirements. The floundering diver is everywhere. (unfortunately)

Absolutely. All divers should be trained in whatever their chosen protocol is and practice it until it's in muscle memory. If that means solo diving with a pony, okay. If that means relying on a buddy as a redundant gas source, okay. If there is some way to combine buddy-diving with self-reliant diving, then train for that, too. What I would caution against is taking the pony along on what is otherwise a buddy dive and hoping it all falls into place when the SHTF.

Full disclosure, I dive in NJ, buddy teams are not normal here, a full boat will have 2-3 teams maybe, and they typically split up for part of their dives anyway. If you are taught advanced here you will be required to have a pony and you will be told that the diving , not in the class but after, will be solo and you should be prepared for that. I prefer it that way, so clearly I'm biased, but I do think everyone should dive redundant, buddy or not, its just smart.

Solo or self-reliant diving is a different animal. Upthread this was beaten to death. Very few participants in this thread have argued that solo diving is not one of the few specific types of diving where a pony might be reasonable.

Consodering how poorly trained many divers are, I think an extra brain from an insta buddy makes things worse.

You're probably right that a poorly trained insta-buddy could make things worse. I haven't seen a dive that would be so important to me that I would rather dive with an insta-buddy than take the time to locate a reliable, well-trained buddy or else sit it out. There will always be another day.

And you're an instructor, right? You should be part of the vanguard trying to work with your fellow instructors around the world to help improve dive training and reduce the number of poorly trained divers, rather than throwing up your hands in despair and saying just take a pony.