Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[Divin'Papaw]

I believe the following two posts from 2004 sum it up nicely. Nobody is suggesting that everybody should dive with a pony. The only request that I have that is if somebody does want to dive with a pony that they should not be discouraged from doing so which is so often the case.


DivinHoosier
"I can't believe we continue to bash this back and forth. If you want to use one, use one. If you want to dive doubles, dive doubles. If you want to rely on the buddy team only, rely on the buddy team only. As my mother would say, "Goodness gracious!""




[IMG alt="Nemrod"]https://scubaboard.com/community/data/avatars/m/34/34955.jpg?1479613487[/IMG]

Nemrod​

Contributor​

DivnHoosier, the answer to your question is because every time a person asks a simple question about how to rig a pony, tips on use, appropriate sizes, how to travel with them or whatever they get shouted down by the scubaDIRboard police who insist on monopolizing the field of opinion that theirs alone is fact and everybody other than them is in need of their superior training at which point they would see the carmic light and realize how stupid they have been for even thinking to use a pony bottle. BS.

N

Fun to see one of my former posts from 17 years ago under a different alias (Divin'Hoosier) quoted. Love that! Thankfully I still agree with myself.

 

[grf88]

Fun to see one of my former posts from 17 years ago under a different alias (Divin'Hoosier) quoted. Love that! Thankfully I still agree with myself.

That is because it is as pertinent today as it was back then, as was Nemrod's response.

 

[Hartattack]

Good point.

Cold water freeflows are very common here. In my experience almost all the real OOG incidents have been caused this way. Some quarries here insist on redundant gas below 30m.

I am still waiting for the OP to do the maths on pony sizing though.

Hi Ken,

I dive into the Great Lakes and surrounding areas as my local spot. The amount of "free flows" you all keep talking about concerns me about what first stages you are using and who is doing your maintenance. I use a Scuba Pro equivalent to the MK25, and I have yet to have a free flow in 37 degrees of water (the typical bottom temp during the season).

I haven't done the maths for a pony bottle because I use a Minimum Gas (MG) calculation in my back gas, which I demonstrated earlier in the thread in my dive plan. However, I can show an example on how to calculate their decompression gas—but that would be out of the realm of recreational and introductory scuba diving, which is what this thread is about and why I placed it in this category. IMHO recreational open water divers do not need a pony bottle if they know how to plan a dive correctly and add a safety reserve into that calculation.

 

[tursiops]

Hi Ken,

I dive into the Great Lakes and surrounding areas as my local spot. The amount of "free flows" you all keep talking about concerns me about what first stages you are using and who is doing your maintenance. I use a Scuba Pro equivalent to the MK25, and I have yet to have a free flow in 37 degrees of water (the typical bottom temp during the season).

I haven't done the maths for a pony bottle because I use a Minimum Gas (MG) calculation in my back gas, which I demonstrated earlier in the thread in my dive plan. However, I can show an example on how to calculate their decompression gas—but that would be out of the realm of recreational and introductory scuba diving, which is what this thread is about and why I placed it in this category. IMHO recreational open water divers do not need a pony bottle if they know how to plan a dive correctly and add a safety reserve into that calculation.

The fact that you have never seen a first-stage freeflow nor a reg failure of any kind does not mean they do not occur. Just go look at accident and incident reports.

 

[johndiver999]

Someone who’s distracted and empties their cylinder. Y not help.

Dealing with an hose or O-ring failure. Y not help.

Some unforeseen incident requiring gas to be passed to someone else (e.g. entrapment).

Just the standard reasons for redundancy.

Y are you saying this? Of course you can shut down one side of a y-valve and stop the air loss from a blown hose or o ring? I will conceded that it may be difficult for a solo diver to figure out which side to shut down immediately, but that does not mean the ability is not there?

 

[scubaozy]

Someone who’s distracted and empties their cylinder. Y not help.

Dealing with an hose or O-ring failure. Y not help.

Some unforeseen incident requiring gas to be passed to someone else (e.g. entrapment).

Just the standard reasons for redundancy.

If you have not noticed, I have only responded to the argument for free flow due cold in recreational diving.
Regarding the o-ring failure, depends on which o-ring you are talking about.
Unforeseen incident? How is it possible to carry gear for every possible unforeseen incident? Angle grinder is probably more effective in entrapment than redundant gas.
You carry redundant gas, it will cost you gas from your main supply. You practically will have less gas. I would rather dive with someone else than you because you are more likely to run out of air and less likely to keep up with my tempo ;-).

 

[Hartattack]

The fact that you have never seen a first-stage freeflow nor a reg failure of any kind does not mean they do not occur. Just go look at accident and incident reports.

Nope, that's not it. However, my comment concludes I take care of my equipment. The fact that folks are having "many" free flow incidents concerns me and leads me to ask two questions:

1. What first and second stages are they using?

2. What is their maintenance cycle on said equipment?

 

[Wibble]

Y are you saying this? Of course you can shut down one side of a y-valve and stop the air loss from a blown hose or o ring? I will conceded that it may be difficult for a solo diver to figure out which side to shut down immediately, but that does not mean the ability is not there?

Can you reach behind you to turn the Y valve off?

When it's off, can you breathe from a redundant supply in the meantime?



All I'm trying to do is make the point about having a truly redundant reserve supply. It isn't for everyone, but it's definitely not the preserve of "technical" divers -- we're talking about recreational diving here.

Over here (UK) we see a lot of people diving with a 15 litre + back-mounted pony 3 litre bottle. 3 litres (x200 = 600 litres) isn't much, but you will get to the surface alive (if you don't hang around too much).

As someone said earlier: if you want one, take one. If you don't, then don't.

Crap happens underwater. Stack the odds in your favour by having an independent gas reserve.

 

[Wibble]

If you have not noticed, I have only responded to the argument for free flow due cold in recreational diving.
Regarding the o-ring failure, depends on which o-ring you are talking about.
Unforeseen incident? How is it possible to carry gear for every possible unforeseen incident? Angle grinder is probably more effective in entrapment than redundant gas.
You carry redundant gas, it will cost you gas from your main supply. You practically will have less gas. I would rather dive with someone else than you because you are more likely to run out of air and less likely to keep up with my tempo ;-).

Am only making the simple point that carrying redundancy isn't rocket science. For simple clear warm water diving to 25m/80' it's probably not necessary. For 35m/120' in cold water it's prudent to carry redundancy.

I'd sooner be arguing the toss with you alive than wishing I had the right kit and possibly drowning.

 

[MrBigfins]

So I dive a pony on 75% of my dives, of which 100% are recreational. There are multiple reasons I started doing this, but foremost was when I started partnering with my son. At that point it changed from having a responsibility TO my dive buddy into having a responsibility FOR my dive buddy. Other reasons include I have a higher sac rate than average buddies (hence why I use a bigger tank for PLANNED gas usage), insta buddies wandering, redundancy, for travel its easier than going sidemount with a buddy who is unfamiliar with the setup or with a dive operator who isn't prepared for that style of diving.

The minimal amount of planned gas I lose to drag does not outweigh the benefit of having a completely seperate air source.

I've done the calculations and a 19 cf pony is adequate for my dive profiles normally, if not then I would go sidemount. Not only have I done the Calculations, I've practiced usage from over 100' including a safety stop (I know it's not required in OOA situations)

My pony reg is bungled normally so as far as ease of use etc, it's a matter of switching from primary to something I can put in my mouth without using my hands. Even OW divers are trained to switch to an Octo, no? Some other than mounting or slinging a bottle, what other "training" is required for a newer diver when using a pony?

A pony is used for EMERGENCY situations, why the heck would you use it in gas planning? It's ONLY to be used when the plan has been shot in the head Well and on the last dive of a trip since I have to empty it anyway before traveling. But at that point I PLAN to use it and only use it at the end of the dive.

NONE of the reasons why I use a pony means I don't understand proper gas planning or management. It simply means I weighed my risks and options and chose which route was best for ME. I'm not so arrogant to assume whats best for me is what's best for others.