Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[Hartattack]

Respectfully, why is it one or the other. People are acting like carrying a pony is mutually exclusive to using proper planning.

James

Hi James, did you read the entire thread? This has been discussed.

 

[boulderjohn]

I thought I would add a comment on some of the disparaging remarks about the dive planning done by recreational divers who don't know their SAC rates, etc. Here is the kind of diving these beginners do:

They dive along and take an occasional look at their gas levels until they reach the point where they have to turn the dive to return to the surface.
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Now, let's compare that to real tech divers, in this case fully certified cave divers following the cave mainline:

They dive along and take an occasional look at their gas levels until they reach the point where they have to turn the dive to return to the surface.
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Maybe it's just me, but I see a lot of similarity.

 

[James79]

Hi James, did you read the entire thread? This has been discussed.

Yes I did... and it seems people still want to see it that way.
I have yet to see an answer on why having a pony means you cannot have done proper gas planning (or adhere to it). Are pony bottles necessary on rec dives... no. However they are a hell of a benefit on some. An example I do fairly often is recreational dives with a single stage double hose reg. Without the slung pony, I do not have an alternate to provide my buddy. It is necessary in that situation. In other cases, it is a handy option to have (all the previously listed reasons, i.e. crappy instabuddy, being the crappy instabuddy, etc.). I make a plan. I dive the plan. I also plan for contingencies. I too did my stints in AFG and Iraq, but I didn't leave my capacity for "what if" there... I honed it and make decisions on my own risk benefit scale.

Respectfully,

James

 

[Hartattack]

Yes I did... and it seems people still want to see it that way.
I have yet to see an answer on why having a pony means you cannot have done proper gas planning (or adhere to it). Are pony bottles necessary on rec dives... no. However they are a hell of a benefit on some. An example I do fairly often is recreational dives with a single stage double hose reg. Without the slung pony, I do not have an alternate to provide my buddy. It is necessary in that situation. In other cases, it is a handy option to have (all the previously listed reasons, i.e. crappy instabuddy, being the crappy instabuddy, etc.). I make a plan. I dive the plan. I also plan for contingencies. I too did my stints in AFG and Iraq, but I didn't leave my capacity for "what if" there... I honed it and make decisions on my own risk benefit scale.

Respectfully,

James

Right on, Brother. Maybe I didn’t lose my imagination, but this thread has made me lose steam with the conversation. Lol. I agree with ya. Cheers.

 

[lexvil]

A pony is a waste of equipment and non-streamlined when one already has the tools to calculate the gas needed to get to the surface on back gas in an OOG situation.

However, if one finds they want more bottom time, after MG calculations, learn in doubles. The diver is still streamlined, creates less drag and conserves gas while now accomplishing a balanced rig.

Still no need for a pony bottle.

A CCR is not needed for recreational diving why are we bringing this up?

Recreational diving is not necessary, if more bottom time is desired an RB is better.

the premise of “completely unnecessary” is completely flawed, the entire discussion is strawman.
More is more.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Dive Plan: Let's make a few educated assumptions that leave us all with a bit of room for conservatism.

1. Let's assume that our average surface consumption rate is ~ 20 L/ 0.75 cuft per minute.

So, before we "ok" each other as a buddy team to descend, after planning the dive and checking all of our gear, what do you think the likelihood of a catastrophic failure or the need for a pony bottle would be?

In the last several years of diving in Asia I have yet to see very few divers who would use 20l/min on a dive. 15l/min maybe. I have dived with lots of divers who are vacation divers who have just certified OW or AOW. They never do any gas planning before a dive and neither does the guide. If on a recreational dive not exceeding NDL then any ascent can go straight to the surface. Safety stops are not mandatory if you do not exceed NDL. Most dive centers either have a time limit of 60 minutes or bring divers to safety stop levels when the lowest diver on air reaches around 50 bar.

I've never seen any recreational diver bringing a pony bottle. They dive in groups and often have several divers in a group.
I don't see a lot of need for recreational divers to bring a pony bottle but if some people prefer that then up to them.

 

[drl]

Many Great Lakes divers who dive a back mount single tank (often an HP 100) carry a pony bottle because cold water can cause a reg to free flow, resulting in rapid loss of gas at depth. Yes, in a pinch one can breathe from a free-flowing reg, for as long as the gas lasts, but a redundant air source (pony bottle) can get you to the surface safely. I’ve seen it happen, though fortunately not often.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

If you were to have a failure, you do not have no gas instantly, .

My Own Out of GAS Experience

A great philosopher said:

"Ah contraire monfraire" - Bartholomew Simpson.

Exceedingly rare but an instance of the absolute worst thing that can happen should be considered.

Well, everything after Megalodons.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Those are my choices. I have no objection to others using different choices on their dives. Want to use a pony? Great! Go for it? Don't want to and have good gas management skills? Great? Go for it!

I am in that last sentence. On recreational dives it's rare I even bother to gas plan. I plan the dive depth and usually use an AL 80 and sometimes an AL 100. I have a good sac rate so gas planning is not necessary on recreational dives as often dive shops have time limits. Some will let me dive to 40 bar without time limits. These multilevel dives just do what you want and don't exceed NDL.

Some of these dives for me may be be down to the 35m 40m depth. But not when diving with recently certified OW or AOW most of the time the max depth will be kept to 25m. If diving with an instabuddy I will check their air from time to time. Not had an OOA with any recreational diver so far with OW or AOW in over 3 decades of diving.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I am in that last sentence. On recreational dives it's rare I even bother to gas plan. I plan the dive depth and usually use an AL 80 and sometimes an AL 100. I have a good sac rate so gas planning is not necessary on recreational dives as often dive shops have time limits. Some will let me dive to 40 bar without time limits. These multilevel dives just do what you want and don't exceed NDL.

Some of these dives for me may be be down to the 35m 40m depth. But not when diving with recently certified OW or AOW most of the time the max depth will be kept to 25m. If diving with an instabuddy I will check their air from time to time. Not had an OOA with any recreational diver so far with OW or AOW in over 3 decades of diving.

I think that's how over 90% of the divers like to dive. Jump in, look around, start to ascend as their gas gets low.

I'd prefer that they adhere to min gas requirements, but I'd be beyond crazy to think there was a way to get all those divers to change their habits. Properly maintained equipment is reliable. No guarantees but as long as people don't have an emergency, they won't change. Sharing gas and not being able to reach the surface before the gas runs out is the only thing that would change that. However that would only happen where the donors gas had dropped below the min gas level for their depth. If it is above, they won't learn that lesson.