Reccomendations on advanced training?

[Thalassamania]

… These are instructors that I would trust with my life. As a matter of fact, I have turned to them on occasion for advice on some critical matters involving my own training. Heck... I'd love to have some of their staff at our store.

Your comment above is out of line and I suspect you'll find that many of the folks here who have spoken out against some of the business tactics of this store will rally in defense of their instruction staff, their training programs and their family of divers.

I don’t doubt that they have some (maybe all) staff with great skills and ability, but given what I perceive to be the upper management of Scuba Science Inc’s lack of moral fiber I’d not do business with them. I don’t like to shake hands with people and then have to count my fingers when I get my hand back.

I've got to go with Stephen on this one...

That’s what makes a horse race.

All you've witnessed is an exchange of opinions on a public forum about the alleged improper servicing of a regulator from 2000 miles away. From a group of strangers who mostly have some vested interest in either position for the most part.No comment except that you are correct about future queries.

The lousy service provided by Scuba Sciences Inc. and poor response by Scuba Sciences Inc. to a customer complaint is not the issue that concerns me. It’s the misrepresentation of senior staff shilling as a consumer and then denying it when caught with her hand in the cookie jar followed by silence from the owners.

The facts are that the alleged wrong doing was in fact never proven. Although the reporting of the incident does seem to support your perceived position, in fact what it really comes down to is SSI's position on the incident vs. Cjust's. The only people who can be absolutely sure of what happened are those individuals that had the reg in their possession for some part of the time period from when it was serviced until it failed. There was a myriad of potential opinions on how it occurred but no one is able to state with absolute certainty what did happen. Your opinion from 2000 miles away is just one of them. And your opinion was empirically derived from a combination of cjust's report, SSI's reply and gossip, hearsay and negative criticism from many others - you and myself included. As was my opinion....

Again, the lousy service provided by Scuba Sciences Inc. and poor response by Scuba Sciences Inc. to a customer complaint is not the issue that concerns me …

Really is anyone here asking you to?...

Yes, Tina (the sock puppet shill and head clacker) of Scuba Sciences Inc. brought it back to the fore. I had let the tread drop.

What you're failing to do is separate your opinion of the management of the store from the potential for professionalism as demonstrated by the instructors and divecons in their store.

I don’t see that as a “failure.”

In fact there are two separate locations so would you have us believe that all of them are guilty by association of what you claim? Some of the most highly regarded instructors in this area work out of their stores including several that have national reputations in their fields. I've read unsolicited recommendations from highly respected SB members posted in other forums here on at least one occasion for a member of their staff

You state that you're not in any position to judge their expertise, then in the next sentence you lump them all together and dismiss them en masse. I know from personal experience that the instructors in that store have their own set of standards independent of the management that they work for. As I'm sure most instructors in your area do also.Might be good advice for you also. Why do you continue to bait here and in other posts:But it's not only you, there are others who continue to try to provoke a response here.Personally I think you're way out of line. And for the record I do personally feel that the situation was likely caused by an unwitting error at Scuba Sciences but that's just my opinion. Although my position may have a little more merit as I live here, visit the store semi-regularly, and do have my Zeagle gear serviced there. (only Zeagle dealer in town) Frankly I'll check it a little more thoroughly now than I have in the past but that's just human nature... .

I can point you to any number of highly skilled, well known divers whom I will not dive with because I do not fell that I can trust them. Scuba Science Inc.’s inability to admit error and take it like a man, puts them in the same category.

And lastly I think Tina has every right to be offended. Wouldn't you be if I made an equally unsubstantiated comment about the Sea Rovers?

Tina posted raves about her workplace while omitting mention of her affiliation. That’s proven. Tina denies sock puppeting, claims to have used just one account, which is clearly not true. The upper management of Scuba Sciences Inc has chosen to remain mum on her actions. She has no call to be offended; she brought this down on herself. I’ve done naught but tell the truth, they’ve done naught but lie, obfusticate and the pretend it didn’t happen.

Please, say whatever you want about the Sea Rovers, like this situation, in the end it will rise or fall on its own merits. Karma will out.

While I may not agree with some (maybe a lot) of Scuba Sciences business practices and quote on quote "Management’s IMO mishandling of the odd customer service issue and I've certainly spoken up about those. Never on this forum has their courses, instructors or DM's come into question.

I’m not putting “their courses, instructors or DM’s into question, I’m saying that I’d not do any kind of business with Scuba Sciences Inc. because, at the upper levels, they appear to me to be dishonest.

Personally, I was certified there and can attest to their having the highest quality OW course that I know of and my instructor was top-notch. Even after having issues with the shop, I still chose to take my son back for the same OW course and instructor. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but if my 11yo daughter wanted to be in Scuba Rangers or something similar, Tina would be the instructor I would call first, no question about it.

How could you possibly do that? She lies. Bold face lies. I couldn’t possibly let her anywhere near any one I care about.

I've had the pleasure of diving with many of their DM's and they are some of the finest, most knowledgeable & approachable divers I know. I am appreciative anytime I am able to dive with them, I always learn something new.

I don’t doubt that. But there’s an old saying, “When you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.” Perhaps it is wrong to paint them all with the same brush. You say that there are some great instructors there who can do good well, and I have to believe you. Perhaps these incidents will help them to see whom it is that they work for and encourage them to find an employer who is more worth of their excellent skills.

 

[KazInAz]

Tina denies sock puppeting, claims to have used just one account, which is clearly not true. The upper management of Scuba Sciences Inc has chosen to remain mum on her actions. She has no call to be offended; she brought this down on herself. I’ve done naught but tell the truth, they’ve done naught but lie, obfusticate and the pretend it didn’t happen.

I know for a fact that Tina has never hidden who she is. She has NO sock puppets. You are confusing her with Missy01 who is the office manager at the metro store location. Tina is the store manager at their 7th street location. You have no idea what the true is. You dont know her....I do.

I’m not putting “their courses, instructors or DM’s into question. When you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.”

Nice, now we're dogs with fleas.
I resent being 'lumped' in with everyone else. I resent judgement passed on people you dont know just because they are afflicated with a certain store. I appreciate the great things that Stephan, John and Garrett have posted about the staff at Scuba Sciences. I agree with them. They do have some great instructors and DM's there. They have some great courses and each course goes above and beyond minimum requirements. My passion for diving rose from those same people and I would trust my life with any of the instructors or DM's that I have dove with. Their tech instructor is the best and technically diving is all they do. Because of this store I have gone down the tech road with certs in deep diving and full cave. As far as I'm concerned the heart of that store is not their manangement....its their instructors and DM's. The plant the passion in all of their students.

I have to agree with Garrett here....you've been pretty outspoken about something you dont have first hand knowledge of. You seem to enjoy this constant baiting. I'm getting tired of it. You have no idea of what your talking about. Why are you so attracted to a group of people that are 2000 miles away from you in a place where you'll NEVER dive! The only thing I can see is that you just like to find a pot to stir.

I'm getting tired of the constant bashing. I'm sure people learned something from the regulator thread....like checking your own equipment or whatever. But even in threads that have nothing to do with regulators someone has to make a jab at it. Let it go already. Its end of story. All your pressures didnt have to the outcome you wanted which was a refund. Its now between the OP and the shop. Let it go...everyone that has an interest in the subject (those that actually live here) have made their opinions known.

Lets move on.......
41 days to Cave Country!

 

[Thalassamania]

Let it go...everyone that has an interest in the subject (those that actually live here) have made their opinions known.

Lets move on.......
41 days to Cave Country!

I had let it go, y'all are the ones dragging it out. And Tina, I do apologize, I was confusing you with Missy.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

... how could anyone in their right mind trust their life to the instructors of that store?

This was the statement with which I had problems.

And... I suspect neither Tina nor Missy is the puppeteer.

 

[divebri]

I don't trust them, from the very top down. You've got deceit at virtually every turn, and "the fish stinks from the head down". They made a mockery of this board.
to support that store by buying things there is to support the way they do business, and I simply won't have it.
There are plenty of alternatives to good instruction, from people more interested in promoting the sport than adding to the financial statement.
There are many good instructors that LEFT there, possibly more than are there now.
Equipment fails, people fail, but what should never be in question to me is the people who I buy from's integrity. I don't care that they had a problem, I only moderately care in the way they handled the customer. I care deeply about the treachery and deceit, the misrepresentation and the mockery.
And their integrity. my friends, is horrendous.
While Thalassamania's words may be harsh, his message rings true.

 

[KazInAz]

I don't trust them, from the very top down. You've got deceit at virtually every turn, and "the fish stinks from the head down". They made a mockery of this board.
to support that store by buying things there is to support the way they do business, and I simply won't have it..

Your free to spend your money where ever you like....its a free country.

[/QUOTE]
There are many good instructors that LEFT there, possibly more than are there now.
[/QUOTE]

Do you personally know any of their instructors? Do you have first hand experience?
I doubt it.
This topic is about their management, not the instructors. Two separate kettles of fish. Do you work for a dive store? Do you have any idea how it works?

[/QUOTE]
Equipment fails, people fail, but what should never be in question to me is the people who I buy from's integrity. [/QUOTE]

Wow, so if the coffeepot you bought at walmart fails in the middle of making a pot, all hell is going to break loose and I'm sure it would be their fault for a faulty product and most certainly not yours for how you made the coffee.
When you on a dive boat, do you let someone else put your gear together? Do you check over your own gear when your on that great dive vacation where they change out your tank for you? Do you check it to make sure its secure or do you 'trust' them since they do this all the time.

Be careful....this mighty country is built on lawsuits.
You've made your opinion clear.

 

[divebri]

First of all, I NEVER have in all my posts said or remotely implied that the rank and file of that store, particularly the instructors, are as a group or individually bad people or somehow not qualified to instruct, divecon, whatever. I believe that there ARE good people there, because I HAVE dove with many FORMER scuba science divers and instructors. Not a problem. I have issue with the individuals who posted on this board unethically, however.
But, to IMO, to spend money in that store, is to at least tacitly approve of their business practices. What they did on this board is well-documented, as employees and as individuals. I don't think that there's many here who would argue the responses, sock-puppeting, an employee posting as if they were a non-affiliated customer, all those things reduce their integrity substantially.
It's akin to the Clinton impeachment - either you think the action and denial are enough, or you don't. It's a judgment call.
But I can tell you this: There are SEVERAL dive shops who would never let this happen, would step on their employees for doing what they did on this board, and would corral everyone in to stop this nonsense. I will do my business there, and I will encourage those who ask to do so as well. You are welcome to toot their horn if you like, and let the consumer either become informed by checking them out and make their own decisions or take their chances with whoever they decide to do business with.
They brought this mess on themselves, and to me more so for all the shenanigans than the customer issue.
And threatening me with litigation is sort of weak, dontchya think? I'm not the one who servicied the reulator that started all this.

yes, when i dive, even if the boat insists on putting the gear together, I always check it. I have had equipment fialures, thankfully only on the surface. I make myself responsible for my own stuff, but hey, if I just got a reg serviced and it blew up my response would be much harsher than what started this tiff.
A coffee pot is a little different than scuba gear, kaz. But if your point is would I blame somebody for selling me defective merchandise, the answer is no, but this may clear it up: When I owned airplanes, and had the annual inspection done, part of the deal was that the mechanic HAD to go with me on the initial flight. I would inspect it as well as I could, not being a mechanic, then we'd BOTH strap in for a ride. Kind of my way of making sure everyone's paying attention.

 

[Thalassamania]

This was the statement with which I had problems.

It may not be right all the time, and it surely is not enough for a criminal conviction, but ... we do know people by the company they keep.

 

[Thalassamania]

This topic is about their management, not the instructors. Two separate kettles of fish.

I don’t see it that way.

Equipment fails, people fail, but what should never be in question to me is the people who I buy from's integrity.

Their integrity is not in question. Their management's is.

Wow, so if the coffeepot you bought at walmart fails in the middle of making a pot, all hell is going to break loose and I'm sure it would be their fault for a faulty product and most certainly not yours for how you made the coffee. .

The comparison is nonsense. What does this have to do with Scuba Sciences Inc. management's deceits?

When you on a dive boat, do you let someone else put your gear together? Do you check over your own gear when your on that great dive vacation where they change out your tank for you? Do you check it to make sure its secure or do you 'trust' them since they do this all the time.

What does this have to do with Scuba Sciences Inc. management’s deceits?

Be careful....this mighty country is built on lawsuits.

Just whom are you threatening and with what? You’re going to sue over opinions that are clearly stated as opinions? Unless you're a sock puppet too you don't have legal standing.

 

[yoginidiver]

Wow. Can I just chime in and say back in October of 2006 when I originally asked about advanced training I had no hidden motives to bash any store in the valley. I found the AZ forum of Scuba Board and a collection of very nice people who knew more about diving than my husband and I did. So I thought to myself, let me ask and see what’s out there. And do you know what happened? A bunch of nice people from all different shops and affiliations gave me a lot of great information. And then for a very long time, months even, there was nothing posted on the thread. But it seems like anything Scuba Sciences has posted on, no matter how benign, has somehow become fair game for tearing into, and this thread is no exception.

So, I apologize for the cliché, but I have to ask: Can’t we all just get along?