Race to the Depth, Slow descend vs Fast descend

[kensuf]

Duh, that's what happens when you inexperienced, dude! It's normal. That's why you're supposed progress slowly!

Why ask if you only accept what you think you know anyway. Breathing fast doesn't cause an increase in CO2 build up.
How come it doesn't happen to me, if it's physiological.

I said it before, I think you're cutting corners and you don't wanna listen to advice... which is not unusual with guys... people wanna dive deep asap, even though, they really shouldn't.
I've tried to explain it a few times now and you don't want to hear it... I give up.

I agree with you to a point. The psychological due to his inexperience is causing him to breathe rapidly, but I bet dollars to donuts he's not doing full lung flushes and he's definitely hitting a hypercapnia event. So the problem starts in his head but then moves into his physiology.

 

[kensuf]

And @Remy B. When I'm diving on a wall, I love rapid descents. Not everyone enjoys slow descents.

 

[Remy B.]

Pullglide

Will I see it for the amount of time I can spend down, I see it at 60m for 30min with VPM +3, lets say a big wreck that takes easy time for exploring.

That comes out to one 40cf @ 50% and a 7L@80% pushing it ( not safe ), or 7L@50% or a 80cf @80% to not pushed ( safer ). if I lose the 50% deco tank I can complete with the 7L but not have enough for my buddy, if I lose the 80%, and I have a 40Cf@50% I will need to complete with back gas.

If in the unlikely event I lose both of my Deco bottles I can complete it with my back gas.

I don't count my buddy gas, I see it as one shall always be able to complete the dive with your own tanks and your buddy tanks is the backup of the backup, you never know when you lose your buddy.

 

[Remy B.]

I agree with you to a point. The psychological due to his inexperience is causing him to breathe rapidly, but I bet dollars to donuts he's not doing full lung flushes and he's definitely hitting a hypercapnia event. So the problem starts in his head but then moves into his physiology.

When I notice the tunnel vision I flushed my lungs and the window opened again, but according to Benno I'm not accurate and I was narked to my ass and it had nothing to do with hyperventilation.

 

[Remy B.]

And @Remy B. When I'm diving on a wall, I love rapid descents. Not everyone enjoys slow descents.

Can't say the same Ken

 

[Bennno]

... definitely hitting a hypercapnia event. So the problem starts in his head but then moves into his physiology.

You're probably right that he does hit hypercapnia, I just think he needs to work on his mind set, for lack of a better word, instead of thinking about how to fix this 'CO2 issue'. I'm sure if he was relaxed on decent, he wouldn't have issues with his breathing rate. I also think he's more narc'ed than he thinks.

 

[Bennno]

I don't have the luxury of time for whatever the magic number in repetitions that will be to go fast to 30m then 35, then 40 then 45m,...

Why don't you have the time? What about the next trip? I suppose this is not going to be your last dive trip ever... you could wait and get more dives in before doing +170', you're choosing not to wait. In scuba diving it's a good thing to be patient and to progress slowly.
Besides, there is nothing in it for you when you dive to 180' instead of staying at 130' or 140'. You'd probably have more fun diving shallower as you don't have to stress out about it.

 

[Remy B.]

I guess you are not understanding what I'm trying to point out.

Depth don't make me uncomfortable, anxious, hyperventilate, stressed out, our how ever you want to call it, if it did I will not attempt them, it is the descend rate.

I'm not that optimistic about time and money in this planet as you are.

I like wrecks, and they normally are deep, that is why I went to Tec training to do it as save as possible and not attempt with a Rec certification and unsafely.

How many Rec INTS or DM, with 1000's of dives have died doing deep dives, did those 1000's of dives help them ? It appears not, did those 1000 dives help them to not make the wrong decision in trying to attempt those dives, it appears not, will had Tec training help them to be more conscious instead of attempt those dives on singles and beyond advised depths, I bed if they had done so, the outcome had been different.

 

[Pullnglide]

I guess you are not understanding what I'm trying to point out.

Depth don't make me uncomfortable, anxious, hyperventilate, stressed out, our how ever you want to call it, if it did I will not attempt them, it is the descend rate.

I'm not that optimistic about time and money in this planet as you are.

I like wrecks, and they normally are deep, that is why I went to Tec training to do it as save as possible and not attempt with a Rec certification and unsafely.

How many Rec INTS or DM, with 1000's of dives have died doing deep dives, did those 1000's of dives help them ? It appears not, did those 1000 dives help them to not make the wrong decision in trying to attempt those dives, it appears not, will had Tec training help them to be more conscious instead of attempt those dives on singles and beyond advised depths, I bed if they had done so, the outcome had been different.

Who are those INTS and DMs you speak of?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Andy, while I agree with a big chunk of what you wrote, I'd be curious to see how many of them were also deep breathing versus shallow breathing. I've seen a number of people that were breathing very rapidly ("heavy breathing") but also breathing very shallow get spaced out on deep dives. The worst case was when I witnessed a friend whose eyes rolled up in his skull at 210' in Cozumel during a fairly rapid descent.

The problem with this is they're not breathing deep enough to flush enough CO2 to prevent getting narc'd and tunnel vision. I see it all the time in student cave divers when they're in charge of running a reel in a high flow system.

One trick I teach my cave students is that as soon as they tie into the permanent line, I want them to stop and take three deep breaths before they proceed further into the cave. I tell them I want to see them counting "1-2-3" as they're breathing. The purpose behind this is so they stop and completely ventilate their lungs, clearing out the CO2.

To @Remy B. -- the problem you're experiencing isn't due to the descent rate as much as it is to your own nervousness and apprehension, which is probably leading you to hyperventilate. You probably feel more in control during the slower descent, which is helping you to stay relaxed and breathe deeper, and during the quicker descent you probably feel out of control, which is causing you to breathe shallow and rapidly. While my "stop and breathe 1-2-3" trick isn't really as applicable during a rapid descent in open-ocean, you can definitely use it once you've hit your target depth to clear your head. You can also try using it from the surface before you descend -- stop and the water column, say at 5', and take 3 deep breaths before your rapid descent.

Another suggestion I would make is to visualize in your mind the dive, including the descent, before you even get on the boat, and then visualize it in your mind again before you splash into the water. I used to think that visualization was new-age mumbo jumbo, but after spending five years racing a bike on the SE bike circuit, I learned a lot about how successful athletes use visualization techniques to "improve their game." I've since then incorporated visualizing techniques on "big" dives and found them to be a very powerful tool.

In scuba spearfishing, a dive can suddenly turn very exciting or also strenuous when you are chasing a fish or even stalking a fish and holding your breath and swimming and swimming and... trying to close the distance without an exhalation. You quickly learn the importance of the proper breathing. Instead of telling people to not breath shallow, I think it is easier to understand that you have to take the time to fully exhale. It takes a little time to push the last bit of air from your lungs and this clears the CO2 and slows the cycle down somewhat. I can feel it when I am stressed, I am exhaling and want to start to inhale, but I have to force myself to remember to be disciplined and keep exhaling, even if it feels strange. Divers can most definitely adapt to the feeling of excess CO2 and not let the feeling freak them out completely and cause additional stress. This is what freedivers do.

When I taught Ow Scuba, one of the pool activities I did was sprints. I made the students do a sprint underwater 25 or 50 yards - really depends on their physical conditioning, but I really wanted them to learn to feel just how crappy it is to be out of breath and sucking on a regulator. They need to learn to stop the activity, be patient, exhale fully and give themselves time to catch their breath.

As for your idea of visualization, I also think that is critical to improving performance in many situations, but it is only going to be effective if you have already done the behavior or activity many times before and you already "know" what it feels like and what it looks like. So it is hard for a novice at any activity to do effective visualization without a bunch of practice before hand.

It does point to one of the benefits of progressive and incremental advancement, where the athlete can recall doing something very similar and visualize or make up in their imagination the slightly more challenging activity and run through it in their minds many times.