Problem at Gilboa 4/21

[pickens_46929]

I wouldn't be surprised if Mike doesn't tell AOW classes to use the depth past the tubes to meet their deep dive requirements. Given the limited experience that most AOW candidates have, there's too much opportunity for students to miss the 70ft platform and head for the bottom.

Frankly, I wouldn't blame him if he did, and would encourage considering him to do so. Save the deep end for the Tech classes.

When I dove with a couple local dive shops doing PADI AOW certs at Gilboa, the specifically stayed in the shallow part and did their max. depth at the Tubes. They got all their requirements completed I believe.

The instructor made it a point to say "don't go in the deep end" several times. Told the students exactly why and that every year someone sneaks over to the deep end and gets themselves in trouble.

Gave me a healthy respect for the deep end.

 

[Rick Inman]

Sad event...

Lack of practice causes panic when things go south, regardless of it's a free-flow or whatever. Most students get their C cards and don't do emergency skills until an emergency happens. And then it's panic time.

A few years back, using single tanks and crappy regs, my buddy and I both had free flows at the same time. His reg free-flowed, so we began to share air from my tank, and of course, shut off his tank to defrost the reg. Sorry to say, but with our cheap regs, we used to do that all the time. Someone would have a FF and we'd just share air, shut off the tank, defrost the reg, turn it back on and continue the dive.

Well, on this dive, while his tank was off, my regs (both the one I was on and the one he was on) started free-flowing. I turned his tank back on and he went back to his reg, and it started free-flowing again. There was sure a bunch of gas erupting all around us on that dive.

Anyway, we just breathed off our free-flowing regs and slowly surfaced from 80'.

But we practiced this kind of stuff so much it was second nature.

You dive enough, something will go wrong. When you have to handle an emergency, it's nice to know that the last time you practiced for it wasn't during your OW class on your knees in the pool.:shakehead

 

[wb416]

Bingo!!!

 

[pengwe]

I think that you have to back up and ask "What are the requirements for diving in 100' of cold water?"

I think you would need a redundant gas supply. Bob mentioned doubles, but a tank of sufficient size would work too. Even better, it would be carried like a deco bottle so that the valve could be manipulated in the event that both regs freeze.

I think you might be right.

It's a bit of a shock to me. Freeflows are covered in OW class, and 100' is within recreational depths. But I could easily see myself getting into trouble in that situation. Turns out I really need doubles, very good buoyancy skills, a reliable buddy and constant practice. Makes you think.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

IMHO, anyone diving ANYTHING other than doubles on the deep side of Gilboa is playing Russian Roulette with their life and the lives of their buddies. In this case, having a spare air is like bringing a water pistol to a 4-alarm fire.

You can put pony bottles in the same category as far as I'm concerned. Most folks don't practice their deployment and/or donation of a pony, so when the "going gets tough", things will snowball out of control in a heartbeat.

Save the false confidence these devices give you and stick with doubled cylinders for cold, dark, and deep situations.

But you can say the same about those diving doubles. What if you can't reach your valves? What if you aren't trained or haven't frequently practiced shutting down your primary and switching to your backup?

Bob ... I'm not saying that applies to any of the folks here on this post. I'm quite certain it doesn't apply to my many diving buddies who use or are moving to doubles. I'm just saying that I'd imagine there are folks out there diving doubles deep and cold who are not ready to handle an emergency at depth. Many may think they're safer because they have more gas but they would be in just as much trouble as someone diving a pony bottle without using it regularly.

I don't think the issue is doubles vs. pony. I think it's familiarity with equipment and procedures and regular practice. A pony bottle is just another form of redundant air. It's accessed differently than doubles and it's assymetric. However, if I dive within recreational limits and frequently practice switching to a slung 30cf pony, I don't see why I'm playing Russian Roulette diving cold and deep to 120'. Help me understand your point about doubles being required for diving cold and deep. I think training, planning and preparation are the key, not doubles vs. pony. But you have a heck of alot more experience than I do and I truly want to learn from that. I just don't ... at least not yet ... 100% agree.

 

[wb416]

A facet of this is DEFINITELY about doubles vs "pony"...

I'm going to generalize... divers don't generally practice going to a pony, stage, or deco bottle in a split-second reaction emergency situation. I'd be interested in a show of hands of those that honestly do.

Rather, if they practice at all (most likely tech divers or others in deco classes), it is in dealing with an emergency while ALREADY on the slung bottle. (e.g. donating the working reg in your mouth when on the deco/stage and then the bottle to a buddy that needs it while you go back to your back gas).

Conversely, I dive with at least 15 different divers in twin cylinders, and everyone of them practices valve drills and air shares. It is an unconscious reaction to donate the primary and put the backup reg into your mouth. So.. this makes a person in doubles (at least divers I've dove with) comfortable with going to the backup reg in an emergency situation and shutting down the primary reg.... again, a practiced response that lends itself naturally to a free flow situation. I've witnessed (last winter) a "real life" cascading free-flow situation in a team of practiced divers and the response was elegance in action.

I feel that it is starkly different to have a pony bottle vs having doubles... not even considering the gas supplies available, but rather more importantly, the ability to get a working reg into your mouth very quickly while dealing with the shower of bubbles by turning off the primary reg.

On another note, if someone is diving deep & dark on doubles before they are comfortable and practiced.... well... I think we can label this one accurately without anyone having to spell it out. We should all be honest with ourselves about our abilities and self-limit our diving when getting used to a new piece of kit.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

A facet of this is DEFINITELY about doubles vs "pony"...

I'm going to generalize... divers don't generally practice going to a pony, stage, or deco bottle in a split-second reaction emergency situation. I'd be interested in a show of hands of those that honestly do.

Rather, if they practice at all (most likely tech divers or others in deco classes), it is in dealing with an emergency while ALREADY on the slung bottle. (e.g. donating the working reg in your mouth when on the deco/stage and then the bottle to a buddy that needs it while you go back to your back gas).

Conversely, I dive with at least 15 different divers in twin cylinders, and everyone of them practices valve drills and air shares. It is an unconscious reaction to donate the primary and put the backup reg into your mouth. So.. this makes a person in doubles (at least divers I've dove with) comfortable with going to the backup reg in an emergency situation and shutting down the primary reg.... again, a practiced response that lends itself naturally to a free flow situation. I've witnessed (last winter) a "real life" cascading free-flow situation in a team of practiced divers and the response was elegance in action.

I feel that it is starkly different to have a pony bottle vs having doubles... not even considering the gas supplies available, but rather more importantly, the ability to get a working reg into your mouth very quickly while dealing with the shower of bubbles by turning off the primary reg.

On another note, if someone is diving deep & dark on doubles before they are comfortable and practiced.... well... I think we can label this one accurately without anyone having to spell it out. We should all be honest with ourselves about our abilities and self-limit our diving when getting used to a new piece of kit.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. All good points to ponder. I value your experience and those of others on this board how vocally advocate doubles for deep, cold water. I'm still not fully convinced, but you give me good points to consider. Practice, instantaneous response, muscle memory, knowing your equipment ... all of these are key. I still struggle personally with why this can't also be achieved using a pony bottle.

 

[String]

Feathering a valve isnt that easy on singles - it can be harder to reach than on a twinset and you're trying to ascent, dump air, monitor rates etc. If someone hasnt trained it im fairly sure it'd go wrong if they tried.

However if the freeflow is simply a frozen first stage then turning the tank off for a short time, maybe even a few seconds can be enough to defrost it and get the reg working normally again, at least temporarily.

 

[wb416]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. All good points to ponder. I value your experience and those of others on this board how vocally advocate doubles for deep, cold water. I'm still not fully convinced, but you give me good points to consider. Practice, instantaneous response, muscle memory, knowing your equipment ... all of these are key. I still struggle personally with why this can't also be achieved using a pony bottle.

The key will be speed.

The regs on a stage/deco bottle are stowed into bands on that cylinder to keep it streamlined. Generally going to a stage or deco bottle isn't done for speed, but is more about smoothness and discipline (e.g. checking guage, maybe purging reg to ensure it's the correct one, cranking open valve, deploying reg, breathing reg).

Meanwhile, going to a backup reg on a bungee under your neck is effortless, and probably without thought for most that use that config.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

The key will be speed.

The regs on a stage/deco bottle are stowed into bands on that cylinder to keep it streamlined. Generally going to a stage or deco bottle isn't done for speed, but is more about smoothness and discipline (e.g. checking guage, maybe purging reg to ensure it's the correct one, cranking open valve, deploying reg, breathing reg).

Meanwhile, going to a backup reg on a bungee under your neck is effortless, and probably without thought for most that use that config.

I currently dive with a long hose and bungeed backup so I'm familiar with the speed with which the you can switch to the bungeed backup. I wear my pony (30 cf) slung as a stage on my left. I have begun diving with it frequently and have started practicing deploying it on a regular basis. You do make a good point. I will take a second or two longer to reach down, grab the 2nd stage of the pony, pull it free from the bands, wrap the hose around the back of my head and insert it into my mouth. Is that too long? Maybe, maybe not.

If I need to donate air I wouldn't use the pony. I'd give them my primary and switch to my backup. The same quick process as if I were wearing doubles, with one key difference. With a single (without an H-valve) both 2nd stage regs will be coming off of the same 1st stage while with doubles they will come off of two different 1st stages. In cold water, that is a real plus. In all honesty I hadn't really honed in on that previously.