Problem at Gilboa 4/21

[dave4868]

The thing is this Dave, even if you have a free hand and choose to hold the reg in your hand and sip, by the time you get that done the reg may have already been free flowing for some time.

I can't tell you that a first stage free flow doesn't increase your chances of a lung overexpansion injury but I can tell you that a rapid ascent certainly does and that's what happens to too many diver who suffer free flows.

If you have an extra hand and if your more comfortable "sipping", then sip. But, if you lose control of your diving and the other critical tasks that that involves, you have other problems.

Not to put too fine a point on it and certainly not to insult anyone but if PADI knew anything about teaching free flow managment, we wouldn't have so many injured and dead divers because of free flows.

Mike, you've backed up your position pretty reasonably with a plausible scenario of a higher risk from injury related to rapid ascent compared to the risk of mouth-holding the free-flowing regulator.

I gather you're suggesting the diver keep the free-flowing regulator in his mouth, perhaps loosely between his teeth to allow excess air to escape more easily.

I can see that as practical.

However, that would bring us back to whether we felt the stressed diver could manage that task safely, or whether the excess task-loading of controlling the speed of his ascent, etc, would lead him to close his mouth around the copious flow and damage a lung.

I can see both as real potential sources of risk.

I certainly don't have an axe to grind for one agency over another, but you've apparently seen this issue addressed more effectively by agencies other than PADI, whose free-flow sipping recommendations I quoted.

As far as your conclusion that PADI's training in free-flow management has resulted in more injuries than the training of other agencies, it would be very interesting to see the basis for that opinion.

Don't take this as argumentative or disrespectful, but I'd be more convinced by citations from other sources about recommendations about how to breathe off a free-flow.

Makes me wonder if other agencies recommend keeping the free-flowing regulator within one's mouth. I'm open to new information certainly.

The documented evidence that small amounts of overpressure can cause lung barotrauma still leads me to believe PADI's recommendation for sipping the free-flow is quite prudent.

Now, if there was some documented evidence to the contrary.....

Dave C

 

[Steve_Dives]

Is there any more info on the accident, such as reg type, etc. The gear used would be helpful just to know if the regs were environmentally sealed. Was there a Deep Dive Plan given to Mike?

Two dove sealed regs. Even good quality equipment can fail. Please learn from their accident and practice the skills you'll need in a similar situation.

The SSI OW manual teaches the Diver's Diamond. Four components are required for making a dive: equipment, knowledge, skill, experience. When their equipment failed, the other three components were not strong enough to bring them through. I don't intend that as a harsh criticism, although I know it may sound that way. They are loved and they will be missed. Make the best of a bad situation and learn.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, you've backed up your position pretty reasonably with a plausible scenario of a higher risk from injury related to rapid ascent compared to the risk of mouth-holding the free-flowing regulator.

I gather you're suggesting the diver keep the free-flowing regulator in his mouth, perhaps loosely between his teeth to allow excess air to escape more easily.

I can see that as practical.

However, that would bring us back to whether we felt the stressed diver could manage that task safely, or whether the excess task-loading of controlling the speed of his ascent, etc, would lead him to close his mouth around the copious flow and damage a lung.

I can see both as real potential sources of risk.

Who knows everything that could happen?...but I've breathed off free flows with my mouth closed around the reg and I didn't blow up. Sipping doesn't freeze your teeth as bad but it takes one hand to hold the reg.

As to task loading, that's an issue with any problem under water. Hold that thought for a moment.

I certainly don't have an axe to grind for one agency over another, but you've apparently seen this issue addressed more effectively by agencies other than PADI, whose free-flow sipping recommendations I quoted.

As far as your conclusion that PADI's training in free-flow management has resulted in more injuries than the training of other agencies, it would be very interesting to see the basis for that opinion.

Don't take this as argumentative or disrespectful, but I'd be more convinced by citations from other sources about recommendations about how to breathe off a free-flow.

Makes me wonder if other agencies recommend keeping the free-flowing regulator within one's mouth. I'm open to new information certainly.

The documented evidence that small amounts of overpressure can cause lung barotrauma still leads me to believe PADI's recommendation for sipping the free-flow is quite prudent.

Now, if there was some documented evidence to the contrary.....

Dave C

The problem I see with the way PADI teaches it is that the student usually only has the oportunity to practice it while sitting on the bottom with NO other tasks to perform. They're negative and not going anyplace. When you have them try it midwater, it usually takes some practice before they can manage the free flow without ending up on the surface unintentionally. If the first time they get to try it is on a real dive in deep cold water, the results are often really bad.

Some other agencies don't mention free flows at all which is worse. To be clear, I'm not saying that PADI trained divers are hurt more often by free flows than divers trained by other agencies. I AM saying that recreational divers who have free flows often get hurt because NONE of the agencies teach free flow management or (for the most part) any other problem management in a diving context.

Whether you sip or dive doubles and just reach back and shut the offending post down, you need to be able to do it while maintaining position control and awareness of your surroundings. Rapid ascents can lead to barotrauma too and far too many divers who have a free flows end up in a rapid ascent. However you breath off the reg until you resolve the issue, you neeed to keep diving while you do it. the only way to prepare for that is to practice it and other problems while diving...that means UP OFF THE BOTTOM WHILE DIVING.

The agencies that don't teach it at all are, IMO, doing a huge dis-service to their students and the agencies that only teach this stiff to students while they're plastered to the bottom aren't doing much better.

Not to say that a freew flow couldn't happen in warm water but to teach or encourage divers to go to any significant depth in cold water without redundancy they know how to use is just looking for trouble as we keep seeing over and over. Taking ill-equiped divers whoe aren't very good shallow and on a deep dive in cold water is just plain stupid and we see the results too often.