Problem at Gilboa 4/21

[Pegger]

Every time I log on to this site, I read such valuable information and learn a ton !!! This thread is no exception!!
I start an AOW course tomorrow night and dive at this very quarry on the May 24th weekend. I had no idea there were so many incidents there!! As far as I know, they take our class to 100 ft as part of the PADI requirement. This will make for some interesting discussion tomorrow.
I dive with a Sherwood Blizzard, does anyone know how well these preform in cold water. That is after all, why I bought it.

Regards

 

[TSandM]

My freeflow which appeared to be due to freezing was instantaneous . . . We had finished an airshare (increased flow = increased adiabatic cooling) and I received my reg back and dropped the secondary and it began to freeflow.

I cannot imagine being in the place of the third diver in this incident, trying to help both others, and knowing that the increased flow in my own regs might produce a third free-flow, as well as trying to provide gas to two divers AND keep everybody calm and manage an orderly ascent. I don't think it can be done, even if everybody is skilled and practiced, but I know I'd be lying awake at night, trying to think of how I could have done anything better. I feel very sorry for the survivor.

 

[Meister481]

I realize a pony isn't redundant, it's a tool. As long as it has sufficient volume to make an ascent. I did the calcs and bought a 19 when I was doing my deep and wreck classes. It's better than a single AL80 and hope. Taking a precaution can be the difference between going home with a story and going to the morgue. Once I bought the pony I never dove past 60 without it, it was my rule. I'm in doubles now that I have the training and practice to use them properly. It's a progression in skill and training, not an absolute. I've been to the bottom of Gilboa with my pony, never had to use it, but I was prepared. Gilboa can be safely done with a pony, you just have to be prepared.

 

[wb416]

Divers typically carry pony bottles for low air situations (e.g. not monitoring their SPG closely enough and needing more gas to safely surface), NOT for "next breath or die" emergencies.

I think this is an important distinction to make.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards anyone diving a pony bottle, but carrying the extra bottle doesn't imbue anyone with special skills or experience to survive an emergency. I equate it to a homeowner that has a handgun for self-defense, but has never practiced using it.

Food for thought....
Next time you're at the deep end of Gilboa, pull an OOA on your buddy on the 70ft platform and follow the cable to the surface. Next, try this from depth. Next try this in OW without visual reference so you can't use the cables as a security blanket. Give some thoughtful consideration to how the "Accident chain of events" can quickly spiral and snowball out of control if you throw more taskloading in like dealing with a pony bottle and a shower of bubbles from a free-flowing reg.

Respectfully,
bob

 

[dave4868]

Every time I log on to this site, I read such valuable information and learn a ton !!! This thread is no exception!!
I start an AOW course tomorrow night and dive at this very quarry on the May 24th weekend. I had no idea there were so many incidents there!! As far as I know, they take our class to 100 ft as part of the PADI requirement. This will make for some interesting discussion tomorrow.
I dive with a Sherwood Blizzard, does anyone know how well these preform in cold water. That is after all, why I bought it.

Regards

You can rest assured that your Sherwood Blizzard will perform very well, unless maintenance has been greatly neglected.

I've never had a free-flow in 850 dives with my Blizzards.

Those dives included a few ice dives and many dives below 45 degrees in freshwater.

Depths often 50 to 80 feet. Quite a few over 100 feet. Deepest freshwater was 140 feet, 45 degree water.

And I breathe pretty heavy and do long dives (120 cf tank).

And I feed quite a bit of air to my drysuit, since I use it for buoyancy control and use a lot of insulation and weight.

And my Blizzards are 20 years old!

Enjoy your AOW class! Your Sherwood Blizzard will do fine. So will you!

Dave C

 

[Pegger]

You can rest assured that your Sherwood Blizzard will perform very well, unless maintenance has been greatly neglected.

I've never had a free-flow in 850 dives with my Blizzards.

Those dives included a few ice dives and many dives below 45 degrees in freshwater.

Depths often 50 to 80 feet. Quite a few over 100 feet. Deepest freshwater was 140 feet, 45 degree water.

And I breathe pretty heavy and do long dives (120 cf tank).

And I feed quite a bit of air to my drysuit, since I use it for buoyancy control and use a lot of insulation and weight.

And my Blizzards are 20 years old!

Enjoy your AOW class! Your Sherwood Blizzard will do fine. So will you!

Dave C

Thanks Dave,

Again, this board provides such valuable info. and advise! I can't see why anyone that participates in this sport, wouldn't be an active member!

Regards,
Steve

 

[bladephotog]

Divers typically carry pony bottles for low air situations (e.g. not monitoring their SPG closely enough and needing more gas to safely surface), NOT for "next breath or die" emergencies.

I think this is an important distinction to make.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards anyone diving a pony bottle, but carrying the extra bottle doesn't imbue anyone with special skills or experience to survive an emergency. I equate it to a homeowner that has a handgun for self-defense, but has never practiced using it.

Food for thought....
Next time you're at the deep end of Gilboa, pull an OOA on your buddy on the 70ft platform and follow the cable to the surface. Next, try this from depth. Next try this in OW without visual reference so you can't use the cables as a security blanket. Give some thoughtful consideration to how the "Accident chain of events" can quickly spiral and snowball out of control if you throw more taskloading in like dealing with a pony bottle and a shower of bubbles from a free-flowing reg.

Respectfully,
bob

Good point Bob. You can't practice enough. I had my deco reg free-flow on me on the Dunderberg last year when I went to turn it on. By covering the mouthpiece and using back pressure we got it working. It wasn't life threatening since I had backgas to deco on that. And another buddy and an AL80 of 50/50 I could've borrowed when he was done. But being a soft overhead it did have my mind racing a bit.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Every time I log on to this site, I read such valuable information and learn a ton !!! This thread is no exception!!
I start an AOW course tomorrow night and dive at this very quarry on the May 24th weekend. I had no idea there were so many incidents there!! As far as I know, they take our class to 100 ft as part of the PADI requirement. This will make for some interesting discussion tomorrow.
I dive with a Sherwood Blizzard, does anyone know how well these preform in cold water. That is after all, why I bought it.

Regards

Gilboa is a great place to dive. But, some of the divers who have been hurt there over the years have been AOW students and there are more than a few of us that think the AOW standards are screwy and the instructors who take AOW students on the deep side are idiots. If you're going to 100 ft, you will be on the deep side. I'd give some thought to your skills and those of the people you will be diving with.

There are not only other places at Gilboa where you can meet the AOW deep dive requirements but it can be a MUCH prettier and more interesting dive than the deep side too. Most of the AOW classes just slide down the line, do their little puzzle and climb back up the line. It isn't much of a dive.

Every time I see an AOW class going in over on the deep side I get a stomach ache and have to go the other way.

The dive I used to like to take my AOW classes on was...we'd get in on the instructors dock, go past the plane. You hang to the left along the wall and turn the corner over the tubes. The view here can really be incredible and the trees along that wall are loaded with fresh water spounge. There's a hard bottom at about 60 ft. You make sure everyone is acclimated to the temp, has a good handle on their buoyancy control and still has plenty of gas. Then you head east along the deep wall. You can dip over the edge and hit 70 or 80 ft without being far from the edge. this is another fantastic view. It's like the grand canyon under water. The edge of the wall works it's way shallower as you head up towards the bus. As you get shallower you'll start to see TONS of fish. As you work your way back to the dock it gets shallower yet and there's lots to see the whole way. Since the dive progresses shallower, there isn't any reason that you can't make a good long dive of it.

It's TEN times the dive that you'll get dropping down the wall on the deep side and you get the chance to really dive. From the instructors point of view it provides a chance to evaluate your skills while you do some real diving...should you have an instructor who is really interested in doing that.

 

[Pegger]

Gilboa is a great place to dive. But, some of the divers who have been hurt there over the years have been AOW students and there are more than a few of us that think the AOW standards are screwy and the instructors who take AOW students on the deep side are idiots. If you're going to 100 ft, you will be on the deep side. I'd give some thought to your skills and those of the people you will be diving with.

There are not only other places at Gilboa where you can meet the AOW deep dive requirements but it can be a MUCH prettier and more interesting dive than the deep side too. Most of the AOW classes just slide down the line, do their little puzzle and climb back up the line. It isn't much of a dive.

Every time I see an AOW class going in over on the deep side I get a stomach ache and have to go the other way.

The dive I used to like to take my AOW classes on was...we'd get in on the instructors dock, go past the plane. You hang to the left along the wall and turn the corner over the tubes. The view here can really be incredible and the trees along that wall are loaded with fresh water spounge. There's a hard bottom at about 60 ft. You make sure everyone is acclimated to the temp, has a good handle on their buoyancy control and still has plenty of gas. Then you head east along the deep wall. You can dip over the edge and hit 70 or 80 ft without being far from the edge. this is another fantastic view. It's like the grand canyon under water. The edge of the wall works it's way shallower as you head up towards the bus. As you get shallower you'll start to see TONS of fish. As you work your way back to the dock it gets shallower yet and there's lots to see the whole way. Since the dive progresses shallower, there isn't any reason that you can't make a good long dive of it.

It's TEN times the dive that you'll get dropping down the wall on the deep side and you get the chance to really dive. From the instructors point of view it provides a chance to evaluate your skills while you do some real diving...should you have an instructor who is really interested in doing that.

I printed off your description above, and will be taking it to the AOW course tonight. With any luck, they'll take note.
Again thanks!!

Steve

 

[pickens_46929]

You mean to tell me that you're actually 40 feet away from your buddy???? I'd get a new one.

Not the kind of gas management I would practice, nor would any of the buddies that I dive with. ESPECIALLY not at 100'.

Hmmm... the deeper I go or riskier the dive, the closer I get to my buddy! The less experience they have, the closer I am... the less experience we have diving together, the closer I am...

More current... closer... good looking female... closer...

Figure I use a long 7' hose... so N - 1 or perhaps N - 2 where N = 7'... so I'm like within a body length and likely an arms length.

Now if I could just get used to diving multiple person teams... :blinking: