PADI vs NAUI

[Thalassamania]

That's what I'm talking about ... the basic format ...

- Intro
- In this module you will learn
- Learning points
- What you have learned so far
- More learning points
- Review of what you learned
- Summary
- Questions

As an instructor I'm free to mix it up all I want ... but during the IE, my course director was adamant that I was required to stick to the format for all my presentations.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sounds to me like an IE with little imagination and a self confidence problem. That sort of attitude was one of the first things I strove to remove from those who staffed the ITCs I ran. Students were given the formula because some needed it to build upon, those where past that were free to do what they felt was best, if the staff did not feel it was good enough, sometimes they'd help fix it as it was, sometimes they'd ask the candidate to step back to the "basic format," but they'd never tell everyone to only use the "basic format." That's an unimaginative cop-out in my view.

 

[rigdiver]

TOM I PASTA lives

 

[ScubaDocER]

The real issue here is the balance between the “ideal world” and the “real world”. In the “ideal world” every diver will have every skill mastered and could teach it. In the “real world” you have to get people to take up diving.

In the real world it depends on why a person is seeking a diver certification to begin with. I do believe that it is incumbent upon the Instructor to help define for the student what is involved in not only learning how to dive, but in becoming a competent diver as well. To "get people to take up diving" does sound more like a marketing strategy than an educational one. If you establish a standard that encourages competency then you wont have to "get them" to dive.

In order to do that you must make the beginning as straight forward and relativity easy. If the entry is to great the dive world will collapse. When you got your drivers license you did NOT have to qualify at the Indy speedway!!!

I disagree with everything you have stated here. The only caveat I would extend is if you are not compromising quality for expedience. I am not sure that first statement would support that however. Instead of focusing on how easy it can be, think about about how proficient and capable the end product should be. Think about what you believe a competent diver should look like in the water. The survival skills you feel are instrumental for them to be both self sufficient and able to provide basic assistance to another diver. Think about how knowledgeable and familiar they should be with basic scuba equipment and have an understanding as to how it works and when it is not working properly. Think about how aware they should be of their environment and the buddy at their side to avoid placing themselves in harms way. Think about how aware the diver should be in regards to gas management and dive planning such that they are able to properly and intelligently execute a dive. Once you have processed all of this, think about the time it would take to acclimate that into a student diver. Then you will have an idea as to how easy or difficult your task will be in instilling such traits. No your student will not be ready to drive at Indy. But they will be competent, functional, educated, and contribute positively to the diving community. Which to me is more important than their being ready for Indy.

As an intro to diving the student should not have to be a dive master to get the initial certification. Yes they do need to master some skills, but not ALL skills. The question is what is essential to learn and what is “nice” to learn.

Very interesting point you mention at the end and what I think speaks to the heart of this issue. There are differences between the agencies as to what is essential. My hope is that through better dialogue amongst not only Instructors, but agencies as well, that we can find more skills that would be considered essential to the development and education of future divers than what may exist currently. Whether it is more rescue skills, more buoyancy/trim skills, further defining proficiency (with a nod to Thals outstanding list of what constitutes a good/great diver), improving buddy awareness skills, testing real world emergencies in a controlled environment, etc.
Note : None of these to me are equivalent to making an "Indy" diver. Just a better diver.

The basics must be mastered in a confined setting and in the open water environment. This does not mean they need to have everything perfected; they must be able to perform the basic skills, such as mask clearing and so forth, they do NOT need to know how to be a rescue diver.

See my previous comment.

Skills take time, but time is a valuable asset, that many have a shortage of, so we need to tailor the needs with the wants to make it a package the average consumer wants.

See Thals response to time and the needs of the average consumer. He stated it better than I could.

Once people have the certification they the learning really begins. The more you dive the better you get, if you set the standards so high that it takes years to get certified, very few if any will join.

One potential fallacy I see with this line of thinking is that if divers are never taught HOW to get better, they continue to make the same mistakes over and over again, or when they find themselves stressed, they just wing it. Sometimes the more you dive, the more you reinforce bad habits or poorly taught skills. If we focus on teaching it better the first time, taking the time that is required to do so, being open to improved ways of teaching and reinforcing positive diving traits, preparing students for even the most common of diver mishaps, then we wont have to undo repeated bad habits. Set the standards according to the quality of the product you wish to produce, not the speed with which you can produce it.

In short “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one” this is the business environment we live in. While one has to produce a safe diver, they do not have to be masters.

While this is great if you are on board the Starship Enterprise, this is a dangerous educational platform from which to begin. To view the education of divers as a "few vs many" misses the bigger picture. Focus on producing competent and skilled divers and you will have educated all under your tutelage, not just the few nor the many. People seem to confuse the concept of producing better divers (at the OW level) with that of producing Divemaster and Instructors. That is not what many are advocating. There is a broad gap between the two. To encourage divers to be more aware, demonstrate competent diving skills (trim and buoyancy), to exhibit solid buddysmanship skills, to demonstrate familiarity with basic scuba equipment and how it works during supervised and unsupervised (post certification) diving, to demonstrate basic rescue skills to provide assistance to other divers, to understand hovering and body position and be able to demonstrate such are NOT Divemaster or Instructor skills in particular. They reflect competent diving skills they every diver should strive to possess at the OW level.

 

[Walter]

The real issue here is the balance between the “ideal world” and the “real world”.

You are correct and Thal's course looks pretty ideal to me. I doubt many could teach it at all without further training, but it's not a simple choice between a 100 hour course with 12 ow dives and a slam bam quickie weekend class. There is a happy compromise that is pretty much what almost everyone taught in the early to mid 70s before standards were lowered.

In order to do that you must make the beginning as straight forward and relativity easy.

I agree. The longer course with more skills is actually easier.

Yes they do need to master some skills, but not ALL skills. The question is what is essential to learn and what is “nice” to learn.

You've been able to see things very clearly. I'm impressed. The disagreement between the slam bam folks and the take your time folks is over what is essential. In my opinion, it is essential to learn basic skin diving before starting SCUBA. Skills that build confidence in one's own abilities are essential because the lower the risk of panic. Others disagree.

they do NOT need to know how to be a rescue diver.

Agreed, but they do need basic rescue skills. The more advanced skills can come in the rescue class.

Skills take time, but time is a valuable asset, that many have a shortage of, so we need to tailor the needs with the wants to make it a package the average consumer wants.

Everyone has the same amount of time - 24 hours per day. What differs is individual priorities. If someone can't take the time to take my class, they can't take the time to dive.

if you set the standards so high that it takes years to get certified

True, but that's a moot point because no one is advocating such an approach. My class usually takes 4 weeks meeting 3 nights per week with the first weekend after reserved for check out dives.

While one has to produce a safe diver

Few do that today.

 

[lucca brassi]

Next time I'll take GUE. I know why - they lern you diving after reading theirs books , looking their skills and after some dives with friends with GUE F

 

[Thalassamania]

Let's get some definition of terms. Here are the ones that I use. Let's accept them as is for the moment, you can assign other titles to the levels or just number them so let's not argue about that.

Do you need to be an Expert to follow a DM around in the Caribbean at a reasonable level of risk? No. Do you even need to be Proficient? Or even just Competent? Probably not. I'd say that for DM lead dives like that Novice doesn't quite cut it, but Beginner would do.

However ... to my way of thinking a Beginner is NOT ready to dive anywhere under any set of conditions with a buddy who is another Beginner. How long does it take to train a Beginner? I'd suggest that it's between 20 and 40 hours with four to six dives. From what I can observe this is about the best that most O/W courses do today. The rare exceptions seem to be concetrated in areas where the diving is especially challanging, NorCal, the PNW and New England.

So what does it take for a new diver to be ready to dive, under typical local conditions, with a similar buddy? I'd suggest that's more along the lines of Competent, which is more like 60 to 100 hours of training and 10 to 12 dives. This appears to be where GUE is headed with their new class, and is typical of the recreational courses that were run in the early days.

The progression from Competent to Proficient to Expert is, increasingly, a question of both training, independent study, and mentoring ... though the progression can be sped up with properly designed courses.

I aim at Competent as a bare minimum and prefer Proficient as the level of new divers that I train. This takes a minimum of 100 hours and 12 dives with the most capable students and often requires more on the lines of 16 to 18 dives and about 140 hours. This is typical of the recreational courses that were run in the very early days of diving.

I think that it really has more to do with what you actually expect the student to be able to do at the end of the course and I suggest that the overall objective statements that most of the agencies promulgate today are just bumph.

 

[rivers]

Let's get some definition of terms. Here are the ones that I use. Let's accept them as is for the moment, you can assign other titles to the levels or just number them so let's not argue about that.

Do you need to be an Expert to follow a DM around in the Caribbean at a reasonable level of risk? No. Do you even need to be Proficient? Or even just Competent? Probably not. I'd say that for DM lead dives like that Novice doesn't quite cut it, but Beginner would do.

However ... to my way of thinking a Beginner is NOT ready to dive anywhere under any set of conditions with a buddy who is another Beginner. How long does it take to train a Beginner? I'd suggest that it's between 20 and 40 hours with four to six dives. THIS IS THE BEST THAT MOST CLASSES DO TODAY.

So what does it take for a new diver to be ready to dive, under typical local conditions, with a similar buddy? I'd suggest that's more along the lines of Competent, which is more like 60 to 100 hours of training and 10 to 12 dives. This appears to be where GUE is headed with their new class, and is typical of the recreational courses that were run in the early days.

The progression from Competent to Proficient to Expert is, increasingly, a question of both training, independent study, and mentoring ... though the progression can be sped up with properly designed courses.

I aim at Competent as a bare minimum and prefer Proficient as the level of new divers that I train. This takes a minimum of 100 hours and 12 dives with the most capable students and often requires more on the lines of 16 to 18 dives and about 140 hours. This is typical of the recreational courses that were run in the very early days of diving.

I think that it really has more to do with what you actually expect the student to be able to do at the end of the course and I suggest that the overall objective statements that most of the agencies promulgate today are just bumph.

Thal, I have no doubt that you teach an excellent open water course, but I do not believe your methods would work well for everybody. Not everyone can sit through 100+ hours of classroom and lecture. I know that I couldn't. I personally learn better on my own time and I always have. I learn much better by sifting through the material on my own, and then researching further into the subject matter through the internet and books. Maybe the difference between myself and others is that I like learning and researching as well as open discussion to further understanding of the material. I don't learn when I'm basically spoken at for hours upon end. Most people cannot learn in such a manner.
While I was doing my certification, the classroom portion basically went over the knowledge reviews, highlighted and spoke a little in depth about the important information and took the quiz. All of the reading was done on our own time. On top of the book work, I took it upon myself to spend endless hours researching the history of diving, evolution of gear, DCS (even how it became known as the "bends"), dangers of diving, accident video and analysis, etc. You name it, I researched it.
Much of time was spent in the water, learning how to be a safe and efficient diver. We learned how to plan dives, the basics of underwater navigation, how to deal in stressful situations, how to be a good buddy, to be aware of our surroundings, our buoyancy, basic rescue, etc. I was recently certified in Cozumel, and yes, all 12 of my dives have been in Cozumel (because of work, I'm in Cozumel quite a bit). I know that if I ever dive in the waters off of my home state of Massachusetts, it's going to be a challenge. And yes, I would either hire a DM or use an experienced diver who is familiar with the area. Why? Because I have never taken a swim off the coast of New England, never mind a dive. I'm unfamiliar with the area, the conditions, etc. But, I would be the one to plan the dive, research sites that are suitable for "beginners" and choose based on what I find.
In Cozumel, I do both shore diving and DM-led boat dives. The shore dives, I plan with my girlfriend. We come up with our objective, maximum depth, how long we plan on being under, as well as work on improving skills, such as underwater navigation. If I am on a DM-led dive, I know that my safety does not rest with the DM. My safety rests with me, and solely with me. I view the DM as another member of the group, who knows the area a bit better than I, or the rest of my friends do, and can maybe point out bits of cool marine life local to the area.
I know that the key to an emergency situation is to remain as calm as possible. Which, yes, is easier said than done for some, but I've been in emergency situations where if I were not calm, things could have turned out very badly. I also know that if you have a person who is panicking, whether it is under water or on land, if they see that you are calm, it helps to ease their panic (not take it away completely, but eases it enough).
I have no idea where you would put me based on your definitions Thal, as I clearly had much less classroom time than you suggest, as well as open water dives during my cert. class (6). By your numbers in your post, that would put me at beginner, but by your definitions in the post that you linked to, it puts me somewhere in between competent and proficient, for the conditions I dive in.
The best way to become a better diver is through continuing education, I know that, and I believe that most divers do. But, you can also be overkill on the classroom (I do not disagree with encouraging more check out dives in the least bit). Not everyone can learn through lecture. In a smaller class setting (less than say 6 people), it may be beneficial in tailoring the classroom portion towards the style of learning that best suits the majority. I know that continuing my diver education is something I plan on doing. I'm doing my nitrox cert. while I'm home around Christmas, and my AOW will be done around April.
Just a post to point out the world of learning isn't black and white. It's more of a gray area since no one person learns in the exact same way...

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal, I have no doubt that you teach an excellent open water course, but I do not believe your methods would work well for everybody. Not everyone can sit through 100+ hours of classroom and lecture. I know that I couldn't.

Thank you, It’s kind of you to say so, but please understand that I do not teach an Open Water Course.

Dive classes are usually described in terms of total hours and number of open water dives. The house do not relate to the number of lecture hours. So, for the 100 hours of course time that we use, about a quarter each are lecture, recitation/seminar, pool and open water.

I'm not suggesting that every one can take a course like this, or needs a course like this, (though that might make for a better world and speed world peace). I'm just suggesting that the industry get honest about what level people are actually trained to and what they should reasonably be expected to do at those levels. I submit that the idea that with 20 hours of training that includes 4 dives people are not really ready to “dive with a similarly trained buddy in conditions that are similar to those that were encountered during training.” Especially when you consider how rapidly conditions can change and what it takes to be able to judge and ultimately deal with such changes.

I personally learn better on my own time and I always have. I learn much better by sifting through the material on my own, and then researching further into the subject matter through the internet and books. Maybe the difference between myself and others is that I like learning and researching as well as open discussion to further understanding of the material. I don't learn when I'm basically spoken at for hours upon end. Most people cannot learn in such a manner.

I don't disagree, lecture time, unless very well programmed, can be the least effective way of doing things. However when well done, in appropriate "bites" it can be a highly effective tool. Take gas laws as an example: We teach the physics from first principles, that way there is no real memorization, and we merge it into physiology topics and decompression concepts so that by the time we’re done the students have covered all the physics, dive medicine, and physiology topics that you’d expect up through a Tri-Mix course. One of the questions that we use in our class, and on the final exam, came up recently on the board, “how deep can you place an underwater habit that is pressurized with air and have the divers able to stay there without concern for OTU calculations?” Now most of my students will never do any shallow saturation diving, but the ability to answer such a question requires an understanding of any number of basic concepts.

While I was doing my certification, the classroom portion basically went over the knowledge reviews, highlighted and spoke a little in depth about the important information and took the quiz. All of the reading was done on our own time. On top of the book work, I took it upon myself to spend endless hours researching the history of diving, evolution of gear, DCS (even how it became known as the "bends"), dangers of diving, accident video and analysis, etc. You name it, I researched it.

All of those things that you researched (and a fair number that I'm sure you did not) we cover, in reading assignments, lecture and recitation/seminar. We organize, integrate and deliver it all. We do not use any agency texts, the material contained in such texts and tested by the “knowledge” reviews are, to my eye, totally inadequate and fail to provide a sufficiently wide base to build a knowledgeable diver upon ... congradulations on being sharp enough to see the need to broaden your base on your own.

Much of time was spent in the water, learning how to be a safe and efficient diver. We learned how to plan dives, the basics of underwater navigation, how to deal in stressful situations, how to be a good buddy, to be aware of our surroundings, our buoyancy, basic rescue, etc. I was recently certified in Cozumel, and yes, all 12 of my dives have been in Cozumel (because of work, I'm in Cozumel quite a bit). I know that if I ever dive in the waters off of my home state of Massachusetts, it's going to be a challenge. And yes, I would either hire a DM or use an experienced diver who is familiar with the area. Why? Because I have never taken a swim off the coast of New England, never mind a dive. I'm unfamiliar with the area, the conditions, etc. But, I would be the one to plan the dive, research sites that are suitable for "beginners" and choose based on what I find.

You toss of topics like, "We learned how to plan dives, the basics of underwater navigation, how to deal in stressful situations, how to be a good buddy, to be aware of our surroundings, our buoyancy, basic rescue" as though you dealt with them completely. I suspect that there are huge holes in the topics you list. Were you shown how to calculate Bingo Air for buddy team of divers with mismatched cylinders and SAC rates, a deep stop and a safety stop? How far have you been pushed to explore your ability to deal with stressful situations? When you look at my definitions, you place yourself slightly above Competent. Do you feel that you can, cope with simple, multiple, simultaneous, and competing inputs? Do you realty see your actions in terms of longer-term goals. Are you able to achieve many tasks using your own judgment, etc? If you are able to … great, you’re well on your way, but not many people who receive conventional O/W training are able to do so.

Are you moving toward being able to make a holistic assessment in context, rather than just an analytic one? Have you started to comfortably, "deal with complex situations holistically?" I could go on, but do I really need to? The real point is have you been provided with execises and approaches that will help you to grow on your own, without a "Diving Leader" at you side?

In Cozumel, I do both shore diving and DM-led boat dives. The shore dives, I plan with my girlfriend. We come up with our objective, maximum depth, how long we plan on being under, as well as work on improving skills, such as underwater navigation.

There’s a whole lot more to planning a dive than what you describe, e.g., what about Bingo Air (or Rock Bottom) considerations? It is not my intent to present a laundry list of all those things that a Competent diver should be able to do in the hopes of hitting a those that you’ve yet to even be exposed to, not to mention failed to master to date, I’m just trying to provide a small taste of that goes into the eighty-odd hours of my class that you missed. BTW: that includes navigation; a Competent diver is no longer, “improving skills, such as underwater navigation.”

If I am on a DM-led dive, I know that my safety does not rest with the DM. My safety rests with me, and solely with me. I view the DM as another member of the group, who knows the area a bit better than I, or the rest of my friends do, and can maybe point out bits of cool marine life local to the area.

That’s a very healthy attitude. But … if someone got into trouble are you prepared to surface them, transport them rapidly to boat or shore (minimum of 400 yards in 8 minutes whilst providing rescue breaths)? Do you know how to set up the oxygen kit and use it to administer oxygen? Do you know how to use the radio and what the protocol is for declaring an emergency can calling for help? Do you know how to deal with a basket lift into a helicopter? Here, again, are things that we teach and practice.

I know that the key to an emergency situation is to remain as calm as possible. Which, yes, is easier said than done for some, but I've been in emergency situations where if I were not calm, things could have turned out very badly. I also know that if you have a person who is panicking, whether it is under water or on land, if they see that you are calm, it helps to ease their panic (not take it away completely, but eases it enough).

And in many cases it must go way beyond what you "know" and rests with how you react, those all those reactions need to have been conditioned so that they are appropriate to the situation. You need to have been pushed up close to the panic edge so that you can feel what it is like to sweat underwater, so that you know that coppery taste on the back of your toung just before you loose it, you have to be able to feel it coming on, and you have to know how to dispell that feeling. These things can be taught and conditioned.

I have no idea where you would put me based on your definitions Thal, as
I clearly had much less classroom time than you suggest, as well as open water dives during my cert. class (6). By your numbers in your post, that would put me at beginner, but by your definitions in the post that you linked to, it puts me somewhere in between competent and proficient, for the conditions I dive in.

Your self evaluation is far more important than anything that I can tell you at this distance. But, it appears to me, that your self evaluation is way too colored by what you have experienced a class as being, what you think a class is, and what you can envision a class being made up of.

 

[mbwilliamn]

Quote from Thal "I suspect that there are huge holes in the topics you list. Were you shown how to calculate Bingo Air for buddy team of divers with mismatched cylinders and SAC rates, a deep stop and a safety stop?" ...are you prepared to surface them, transport them rapidly to boat or shore (minimum of 400 yards in 8 minutes whilst providing rescue breaths)? Do you know how to set up the oxygen kit and use it to administer oxygen? Do you know how to use the radio and what the protocol is for declaring an emergency can calling for help? Do you know how to deal with a basket lift into a helicopter? Here, again, are things that we teach and practice.


The tasks you note here are clearly of value, but it doesn't mean a new diver should be required to know all of them. What they should be aware of, is these may be required and if they can't do it, who will. This is core to an overall general and specific risk assessment that I use (based on some NAUI, but with a lot of aviation related risk planning added). If diving on a dive charter with a CG certified crew, much of these tasks are covered. Although I can't prevent it, I highly discourage new divers from diving from private boats or without a dive professional....there are numerous examples of what can go wrong in these cases....most have a common thread. Either through lack of preparation/planning or simply overconfidence divers get in a situation beyond their limitations. As I noted before, this is the "chain of the accident".

Most dive operations treat basic OW divers like what they are, beginners. Where I would like to see standards changed is where we get beyond OW. I am very disappointed with "advanced" OW training programs. I've basically discarded NAUIs program and test and created my own...it looks a lot more like their Master course. If someone is looking for the next level of training, they have made a commitment to the sport and generally have a MUCH different motivation level than someone looking to try out diving. They will put in whatever time is required and this is where I incorporate many of the topics (and problem solving) you note.

I'm not sure about your main point in this thread...I see two possible: 1. Divers should not be certified unless they are at least to your definition of competent. I do not agree. 2. Instructors and agencies should admit the level of training they are producing...I agree....this will cause both to focus on teaching limitations/decision making and the fact that "terminating a dive early" is not a bad thing and being able to remove and replace your mask and reg in a controlled situation is NOT sufficient to be prepared for having it removed unexpectedly.

From a previous post.....the link did not get me to the study on deep stops and bubble formation....just he UC divers home page.

 

[mbwilliamn]

Quote from THAL "I'd say that you're on the right path. I think that there are a few places where you've strayed (e.g., harassment exercises)."


NOT harassment exercises. The next step in dealing with an emergency. Once the student has demonstrated that they can sit still, think about it take a deep breath, discard their reg and retrieve it.....not really ready to have it accidentally pulled from their mouth by their buddy. Again, in a controlled environment, we gradually increase the intensity of the exercise to the point that they have unexpected had their mask flooded and their reg pulled loose. I've seen it happen to new divers in the ocean and the difference in how they deal with the real event is worth the very little time it takes. Having said all this, if you still feel this is harassment, I'll just take it and move on. Thanks!