PADI vs NAUI

[mbwilliamn]

Lot of interesting thoughts here. As well as some logic run a muck. Couple of thoughts of my own:

If we don't keep people coming into diving we will all be out of business. To obtain a C-Card you shouldn't have to know everything there is about diving. I approached diving like I did flying....learn and practice the emergency procedures first, so you can protect your life right from the start. This does not require 100 hours to complete.

NOT EVERYONE should be signed off. Some people simply do not have the ability to become safe basic OW divers....unfortunately many shops and instructors give them the card anyway. I've dove over 300 dives in the past 3 years and have seen the good, bad and very ugly.

NAUI vs PADI (or other agencies)...they all teach the same thing...main thing about NAUI I really like is I can tailor my class to the students. If they "got it" we can move on and spend time on the next topic where they may not "get it". The agency is not nearly as important as the individual instructor. Once you are an instructor, you are simply out there. I would fully support a formal "recert" course for instructors every 2-3 years. Prime example: NAUI changed their "safety stop" standards a year ago for dives deeper than 40 ft. This change was based on solid scientific research. However, I continually run into students and instructors in all agencies who are using the 3 min/15 ft stop. The number and size of bubbles detected between use of the new standard and the old is incredible!

The HARDEST thing to do is get recreational divers to continue their education. I'm sure with a long classroom time, I could impart the kind of information is normally taught in an advanced or Master Diver course, but most people just want to get wet! Diving is like any other hobby...you can spend as much as you want once you decide you love it...problem is, if we make it too hard to start with, we're back to my first thought....keeping the pipeline full and that's only going to get harder as the economy stays slow. That doesn't mean we let BASICS slide - If you can't hover at 15 ft, you shouldn't pass....do not pass go, do not get C-Card.

Changing standards and good practices is too hard when a lot of the senior respected people in diving stop learning and asking "is there a better way". Simple question...ever see anyone run out of air underwater? If not, check U tube...couple of equipment malfunctions....funny common theme...they always seem to take the primary away from their buddy. So why do most instructors still attach the Octo somewhere on the BC? All of my students use a necklace that holds the Octo right under their chin....with a little practice they can access it without their hands. Same problem with the deep dive stops I mentioned before.

Less lecture, more practice! Lecturing is the most inefficient way of imparting knowledge and skills. Most people can read and comprehend at 10 times the rate than they learn in a lecture. Also most people retain better if they practice the motor functions involved. During my pool sessions, students remove and replace their masks at least 20-30 times until it requires no thought. Same with the regulator...including some "instructor induced" loss of the 2nd stage. NO amount of class can replace practical exercise.

Boy this post should get a few comments, eh? I am always learning, so if you disagree with anything I've said please provide the "why" not just the "I'm right and you are wrong"....everyone has an opinion and without fact that's all you have.

 

[mathauck0814]

I make very few assumptions, I deal in the demonstrable. Problems with your personal comfort are solely your own.

I challenge you to demonstrate this, then.

Rather clearly the case. Either that or your instructor is way, way better than I (or those who have run similar programs for the past 60 years). Are we all wasting everyone's time?

Obviously you feel as though what you're offering is the pinnacle of diver education achievement and that it couldn't possibly be improved upon. Seriously? Diving is just another product in a marketplace that must evolve with the needs of its customers or fade by the wayside.

Or perhaps, without the confines of having to do everything as cheaply as possible, might we have learned something?
I'm quite certain that it is the case.

I never once suggested that diving should be less expensive, just that those who are in a position to improve the offering by increasing the quality of the product and decreasing the time commitment will excel longer term.

No, we typically teach with one staff member for every two students. The standard working group is a buddy pair of staff to two buddy pairs of students.

Well, then I'd say you've got the ratios right, what's stopping you from improving your efficiency and delivery mechanisms?

The "market place at large" is a complete irrelevancy to me, it does not effect me and doubt if it ever will.

What an enviable position you find yourself in! And further, what a role model you are for those instructors who don't have that luxury. Frankly it amuses me to no end that there's an "ivory tower" for diver instruction.

I'm not suggesting that you not bother, what I'm telling you is that you've been sold a bill of goods concerning your readiness to dive and competence to handle yourself in the water. You've been brainwashed into the idea that following behind a DM in the Caribbean with another DM bringing up the rear, or that a plunge into an aquarium tank at Disney is an "adventure."

Frankly, I haven't been sold anything. I have not had a DM led dive that was not in a course for over three years and I feel completely comfortable/capable in the water. I'm sorry if it's a blow to your ego to hear that not everyone needs your course to function. This isn't rocket science people, it's breathing through a hose.

But I guess you're right. There's no room for improvement even in your own procedures - or perhaps there is and you're just completely uninterested in hearing it from someone whose name you can't drop.

 

[Thalassamania]

Lot of interesting thoughts here. As well as some logic run a muck. Couple of thoughts of my own:

If we don't keep people coming into diving we will all be out of business.

Speak for yourself. We were here before it was a business and we'd be here if the business folded.

To obtain a C-Card you shouldn't have to know everything there is about diving.

I've been diving for over a half century, I've had the opportunity study under many of the masters of the field, and I'd not pretend that I come anywhere close to knowing everything there is about diving. The idea that one could teach everything there is to know diving in 100 hours is even more unlikely an idea than being able to turn out a merely competent diver from most of today's open water courses.

I approached diving like I did flying....learn and practice the emergency procedures first, so you can protect your life right from the start. This does not require 100 hours to complete.

Basically you're right ... you can learn the critical emergency procedures in a few hours, practicing them to the point that you can perform them over and over in a controlled circumstance adds only a few more hours. What takes the time is learning to respond correctly to multiple problems (it's almost always a chain of events that kills divers) at ever increasing levels of distraction and stress that really takes the time.

NOT EVERYONE should be signed off. Some people simply do not have the ability to become safe basic OW divers....unfortunately many shops and instructors give them the card anyway. I've dove over 300 dives in the past 3 years and have seen the good, bad and very ugly.

You've likely seen more of it than I have in the last three years, I try to keep the recreational diving world at arms length.

NAUI vs PADI (or other agencies)...they all teach the same thing...main thing about NAUI I really like is I can tailor my class to the students. If they "got it" we can move on and spend time on the next topic where they may not "get it". The agency is not nearly as important as the individual instructor. Once you are an instructor, you are simply out there. I would fully support a formal "recert" course for instructors every 2-3 years. Prime example: NAUI changed their "safety stop" standards a year ago for dives deeper than 40 ft. This change was based on solid scientific research. However, I continually run into students and instructors in all agencies who are using the 3 min/15 ft stop. The number and size of bubbles detected between use of the new standard and the old is incredible!

I agree with you concerning the flexibility of the NAUI program, after all ... I created much of that flexibility; and despite various reductions in what I had originally written into NAUI's Standards, flexibility is one thing that does remain.

What you are discussing are changes in NAUI's RECOMMENDATIONS concerning deep stops and safety stops, not STANDARDS. If you think that NAUI's recommendation was based on "solid scientific research," then I strongly recommend that you read the actual paper. The best that could be said of the study is that it demonstrated that precordial Doppler detectable bubbles (which may or may not be indicative of actual DCS risk) can be reduced following dives to 82 FSW for 25 minutes by a 2.5 min stop at 50 FSW and a stop of three to five minutes at 20 FSW. But, if you make a dive to other than 82 FSW, for any time other than 20 to 25 minutes, using these conclusions is extrapolating outside of your data set, with is never a good idea.

Might I direct your attention to: Schellart NA, et. al., "Bubble formation after a 20-m dive: deep-stop vs. shallow-stop decompression profiles.," Aviat Space Environ Med. 2008 May;79(5):488-94; which states: "Our results indicate that at least for the tested dive profile, the higher supersaturations after surfacing (after deep stop dives) overruled any possible beneficial effects of the deep stop on bubble formation. The usefulness of substituting a shallow stop with a deep stop in dives up to 20 msw can be questioned; at the least, more research is needed."

The problem with a formal recertification every two to three years is that the average half life of an instructor cohort is only two years.

The HARDEST thing to do is get recreational divers to continue their education.

If that is so, and if they in fact need more education, capture them at creation and provide at the front end.

I'm sure with a long classroom time, I could impart the kind of information is normally taught in an advanced or Master Diver course, but most people just want to get wet!

We've been through this one a million times. If you feel somehow bound to deliver what people have been told by the marketeers that they want ... knock yourself out, that doesn't make it right, that doesn't make it reasonable, that doesn't make it something that I'd be willing to do.

Diving is like any other hobby...you can spend as much as you want once you decide you love it...problem is, if we make it too hard to start with, we're back to my first thought....keeping the pipeline full and that's only going to get harder as the economy stays slow.

And where in the code of absolute reality is it inscribed that the "pipeline" must stay full?

That doesn't mean we let BASICS slide - If you can't hover at 15 ft, you shouldn't pass....do not pass go, do not get C-Card.

Changing standards and good practices is too hard when a lot of the senior respected people in diving stop learning and asking "is there a better way".

It appears to have been quite easy for standards and practices to have been reduced, despite intense opposition from most of the "senior respected people."

I have spent my entire career asking, "is there a better way," and whenever I found one I have incorporated it into what I do. I have been able to ask that question and make those changes without having to kowtow to the marketeers, my only measure was the quality of the diver who was produced, so I suspect that I have a much better grasp on what the "better ways" are than most.

Simple question...ever see anyone run out of air underwater? If not, check U tube...couple of equipment malfunctions....funny common theme...they always seem to take the primary away from their buddy. So why do most instructors still attach the Octo somewhere on the BC? All of my students use a necklace that holds the Octo right under their chin....with a little practice they can access it without their hands. Same problem with the deep dive stops I mentioned before.

That's a perfect example, We made the change to surrendering the primary back in the 1970s, when auxiliaries were first introduced. It was the agencies who could not agree (mainly due to marketing concerns, like the NASDS "Safe Second") and saddled the diving world with the "Golden Triangle" horse pucky.

Less lecture, more practice! Lecturing is the most inefficient way of imparting knowledge and skills. Most people can read and comprehend at 10 times the rate than they learn in a lecture.

Learning is best accomplished in different ways by different people, there are good reasons to have people read material, to talk with them about it, and to guide them to discover some things on their own.

Also most people retain better if they practice the motor functions involved. During my pool sessions, students remove and replace their masks at least 20-30 times until it requires no thought. Same with the regulator...including some "instructor induced" loss of the 2nd stage. NO amount of class can replace practical exercise.

Work by Egstrom at UCLA suggests that 17 successful repetitions is adequate for even rather complex underwater tasks. I think that for motor skills it is critical to do it right the first time, and then to repeat the skill correctly many times, under slowly increasing levels of distraction and stress. We do no harassment of students what-so-ever; we feel that breaks the basic trust that needs to exist between student and instructor; rather, we use exercises that create increasing levels of stress.

Boy this post should get a few comments, eh? I am always learning, so if you disagree with anything I've said please provide the "why" not just the "I'm right and you are wrong"....everyone has an opinion and without fact that's all you have.

We are all always learning. I'd say that you're on the right path. I think that there are a few places where you've strayed (e.g., harassment exercises). I hope I can make this conversation useful for you.

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I challenge you to demonstrate this, then.

I already have, repeatedly.

Obviously you feel as though what you're offering is the pinnacle of diver education achievement and that it couldn't possibly be improved upon.

I try to improve on what I do every class. As Leapfrog quotes me in his signature line: "Any way in which I can assure that the techniques that we have developed and the values that we have taught are passed on and further refined I'm happy to do.-Thalassamania"

Seriously? Diving is just another product in a marketplace that must evolve with the needs of its customers or fade by the wayside.

Seriously? It does not surprise me that you'd hold that view, I just don't happen to agree that bending to each and every trend in a market is a good thing.

I never once suggested that diving should be less expensive, just that those who are in a position to improve the offering by increasing the quality of the product and decreasing the time commitment will excel longer term.

If what you suggested were true that would be grand, but it isn't true, because those who have excelled (at least in your terms) have been those who have decreased the quality of the product and increased their profits by decreasing the the time commitment required.

Well, then I'd say you've got the ratios right, what's stopping you from improving your efficiency and delivery mechanisms?

Do you still beat your wife? (and other logical fallacies)

What an enviable position you find yourself in! And further, what a role model you are for those instructors who don't have that luxury. Frankly it amuses me to no end that there's an "ivory tower" for diver instruction.

Actually the "amusing thing" (which I fear results in those who have the background laughing at you, rather than with you) is that o/c scuba diving in the United States started in the Ivory Tower, spread from there to the military and the recreational community and continues in the Ivory Towers in much the same form (with some details altered for improvements in gear) that it was in more than five decades ago.

Frankly, I haven't been sold anything. I have not had a DM led dive that was not in a course for over three years and I feel completely comfortable/capable in the water.

Really? Three whole years? What an accomplishment, we are all so very proud of you. The fact that you feel completely comfortable/capable in the water really only speaks to where you are in your diving progression ... that is typical of divers with only 500 to 1,000 dives, I (as I pointed out earlier) made the same mistake and needed to have it pointed out to me by someone who had an order of magnitude less dives, but was a much better diver. Take if from someone with well over an order of magnitude more dives than you have, if you are typical of most divers with 600 dives, don't know half of what you think you do, you aren't half as good as you think that you are and statistically you are a real danger to yourself till you get over that.

I'm sorry if it's a blow to your ego to hear that not everyone needs your course to function. This isn't rocket science people, it's breathing through a hose.

I have no problem with people doing whatever they want, I believe in complete freedom of choice, but I do believe in informed choice. And you're right ... it isn't rocket science, it's breathing thorough a hose, it only becomes more than that when things go south and you want to survive anyway.

But I guess you're right. There's no room for improvement even in your own procedures - or perhaps there is and you're just completely uninterested in hearing it from someone whose name you can't drop.

You clearly have no idea about any of this, none what-so-ever, so it's likely best that we leave it at that, that way those who do know can continue to chuckle at your expense ... it really is rather funny, sad ... but funny.

 

[leapfrog]

I try to improve on what I do every class. As Leapfrog quotes me in his signature line: "Any way in which I can assure that the techniques that we have developed and the values that we have taught are passed on and further refined I'm happy to do.-Thalassamania"

Hmm... and let's not talk about the comfort of opinion!

 

[Thalassamania]

Naw ... too much discomfort.

 

[mbwilliamn]

Far too many things to assimilate in one glance, but I do have a few observations. From looking around on this board and looking at many different areas of the dive industry, it appears the "recreational" diver outnumbers those of us who are professionals by an exponential factor. It seems odd to me then that someone with your experience would not have much contact with the majority of those out there diving.

You are correct about being around even if the "business" of dive failed, but what has the professional (including military) gained from the advancement of diving? I think professional, scientific and military divers benefit from what recreational divers will pay for convenience.

Recognition of the chain of events is the real teaching point. This includes predive and during the dive, yet I don't see it emphasized. Teaching a student (regardless of experience) to identify and recognize their limitations is as important as good buoyancy control. While teaching my first class imagine my surprise when I realized my SAC rate was double my previous sipping rate! Another pilot saying I using in diving "a superior pilot is one who uses his superior decision making skills to avoid the use of his superior flying abilities".

Being a scientist by training, I have read the study NAUI referred to, but have not read the one you reference....I'll correct that in the near future and continue the discussion.

Final word for today from me...don't ever think I listen to marketeers! I teach because I love teaching and love diving and want to have some part in training the next generation of divers to be GOOD divers, not tourists with a tank and a mask!

 

[Thalassamania]

Far too many things to assimilate in one glance, but I do have a few observations. From looking around on this board and looking at many different areas of the dive industry, it appears the "recreational" diver outnumbers those of us who are professionals by an exponential factor. It seems odd to me then that someone with your experience would not have much contact with the majority of those out there diving.

Where would you expect that contact to be? Here on ScubaBoard, sure ... but I don't dive off commercial dive boats, I rarely go to local recreational dive sites, I don't hang out at dive shops, I don't flog my services to the general diving public, etc. Most of my diving is off private boat or research vessels, or off the rocks at South Point.

You are correct about being around even if the "business" of dive failed, but what has the professional (including military) gained from the advancement of diving? I think professional, scientific and military divers benefit from what recreational divers will pay for convenience.

What does it matter if I wear a no vest, a horse collar, a poodle vest or a BP/W that I don't put air in? My rebreathers are military. My DPV is military. There has been some improvement in dry suits.

Recognition of the chain of events is the real teaching point. This includes predive and during the dive, yet I don't see it emphasized. Teaching a student (regardless of experience) to identify and recognize their limitations is as important as good buoyancy control. While teaching my first class imagine my surprise when I realized my SAC rate was double my previous sipping rate! Another pilot saying I using in diving "a superior pilot is one who uses his superior decision making skills to avoid the use of his superior flying abilities".

No argument there.

Being a scientist by training, I have read the study NAUI referred to, but have not read the one you reference....I'll correct that in the near future and continue the discussion.

Final word for today from me...don't ever think I listen to marketeers! I teach because I love teaching and love diving and want to have some part in training the next generation of divers to be GOOD divers, not tourists with a tank and a mask!

Excellent! Have a look at this.

 

[mathauck0814]

If what you suggested were true that would be grand, but it isn't true, because those who have excelled (at least in your terms) have been those who have decreased the quality of the product and increased their profits by decreasing the the time commitment required.

No, my assertion is that those who excel are those who understand the needs of their customers. It's your assertion that they're somehow diluting the quality of the product. We have different needs, frankly.

Do you still beat your wife? (and other logical fallacies)

I'd ask for an explanation, but I'm afraid where in your subconscience this one came from.

Actually the "amusing thing" (which I fear results in those who have the background laughing at you, rather than with you) is that o/c scuba diving in the United States started in the Ivory Tower, spread from there to the military and the recreational community and continues in the Ivory Towers in much the same form (with some details altered for improvements in gear) that it was in more than five decades ago.

We get it, you're ancient. This doesn't address the fact that this is a commercial enterprise now with the same market pressures that any other commercial enterprise must answer for. My assertion remains - the best agency is the one that meets the needs of its customers.

Really? Three whole years?

Again, we can't all be dinosaurs who've been at it for 50 years.

The fact that you feel completely comfortable/capable in the water really only speaks to where you are in your diving progression

Your approach to messaging that I might pursue more training needs refinement. I can tell you really give a damn about recreational divers progressing in their abilities.

You clearly have no idea about any of this, none what-so-ever, so it's likely best that we leave it at that, that way those who do know can continue to chuckle at your expense ... it really is rather funny, sad ... but funny.

It occurs to me that I have more of an idea on this than you do. Given that I'm making observations as a diving consumer and you self-profess to stay as far away from the recreational diving industry as possible. I'm very happy for you that you've been around for so long. It's really a shame that someone with the ability to apply influence like yourself doesn't have a better attitude that would potentially encourage someone to pursue more training than what they have. Frankly, your salesmanship sucks. Though I'm certain you don't care.

And yes, I'll drop it because we clearly won't agree that customers or markets are at all important to scuba diving or that the agencies could improve their service by considering a little bit of either.

 

[Thalassamania]

No, my assertion is that those who excel are those who understand the needs of their customers. It's your assertion that they're somehow diluting the quality of the product. We have different needs, frankly.

It's not my assertion, its easily demonstrable if you follow the devolution of standards over the years and observe the product.

Somehow I suspect that when it comes to diving you've been deluded ... you don't sound like the sort that drives a Yugo or wears a G-Shock, I suspect that you really don't know what a diver needs ... you've just bought into the advert bumph.

I'd ask for an explanation, but I'm afraid where in your subconscience this one came from.

All you need do is look into logical fallacies a bit, then you'll understand that most of the folks here are way to experienced to let you get away with that sort of crap.

We get it, you're ancient. This doesn't address the fact that this is a commercial enterprise now with the same market pressures that any other commercial enterprise must answer for. My assertion remains - the best agency is the one that meets the needs of its customers.

Market pressures in diving are crap, all they reflect is the effectiveness of marketing plans, they say nothing about the actual quality of the programs that they flog, in point of fact they usually lie about those programs.

Again, we can't all be dinosaurs who've been at it for 50 years.

Yep, we've all got to start somewhere sonny and you appear to be off to a rather rocky start.

Your approach to messaging that I might pursue more training needs refinement. I can tell you really give a damn about recreational divers progressing in their abilities.

You can spend your time trying to describe a spade as and entrenching tool ... that's an abysmal waste of time in my book. Actually, I probably care more about the real progress of recreational divers than most of the agencies do. I just don't suffer fools gladly, but fortunately not all recreational divers meet that specification.

It occurs to me that I have more of an idea on this than you do. Given that I'm making observations as a diving consumer and you self-profess to stay as far away from the recreational diving industry as possible. I'm very happy for you that you've been around for so long. It's really a shame that someone with the ability to apply influence like yourself doesn't have a better attitude that would potentially encourage someone to pursue more training than what they have. Frankly, your salesmanship sucks. Though I'm certain you don't care.

No, I really don't care. I don't sell, I just tell the truth. But even though I don't "sell'' any product, I have way more "business" than I can deal with.

 

[Rhenry]

The real issue here is the balance between the “ideal world” and the “real world”. In the “ideal world” every diver will have every skill mastered and could teach it. In the “real world” you have to get people to take up diving. In order to do that you must make the beginning as straight forward and relativity easy. If the entry is to great the dive world will collapse. When you got your drivers license you did NOT have to qualify at the Indy speedway!!! As an intro to diving the student should not have to be a dive master to get the initial certification. Yes they do need to master some skills, but not ALL skills. The question is what is essential to learn and what is “nice” to learn.
The basics must be mastered in a confined setting and in the open water environment. This does not mean they need to have everything perfected; they must be able to perform the basic skills, such as mask clearing and so forth, they do NOT need to know how to be a rescue diver.
Skills take time, but time is a valuable asset, that many have a shortage of, so we need to tailor the needs with the wants to make it a package the average consumer wants. Once people have the certification they the learning really begins. The more you dive the better you get, if you set the standards so high that it takes years to get certified, very few if any will join.
In short “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one” this is the business environment we live in. While one has to produce a safe diver, they do not have to be masters.