PADI vs NAUI

[ScubaDocER]

Now you can. Speak to me! I'm an independent too. Maybe it has more to do with independence than the agency?

You may be correct leapfrog. My understanding of PADI's S&P is that if a student completes the skills, regardless of their proficiency in doing so, they must be certified. Since I am not a PADI Instructor, please don't hold me to that understanding. It is what I have gleaned from reading other posts made by PADI Instructors. If that is the case, then it is the agency that is limiting the Instructor, rather than encouraging the Instructor to seek a higher level of proficiency. Otherwise, the independent Instructor may be violating their agencies standards if they fail to do so. I do like the concept introduced in another thread that suggests that the standards are not commandments etched in sacred tablets but guidelines designed to steer the Instructor in the right direction. This allows the Instructor to use sound judgment and good reasonable intuition to tailor the course to meet the needs of the least competent student as well as the most competent. All the while allowing the Instructor to establish a standard that produces quality divers independent of their beginnings or initial limitations. An agency that recognizes that would IMO place the burden of education at the Instructors door step where it belongs as oppose to impeding the Instructor who seeks a higher level of proficiency.

 

[ScubaDocER]

My "incorrect" part was that Instructors don't "HAVE" to certifiy somebody because they performed the skills because their agency tells them. The agency doesn't tell them to do that. They do, because the dive shop tells them to. I know personally, 2 different instructors that quit, from different shops, because they were tired to being told to pass students (by the dive shop, not the agency) that were unsafe, but could slide by on the skills. They felt some students needed more work, or were simply unsafe. When they didn't pass them the dive shops told them to pass them. When they got sick of it they chose to go the independent route. That way they can take their time with the students and make sure they are ready, instead of running on a schedule imposed by the dive shops for maximum turnover.

On that I agree. You are correct in that nothing mandates that anyone do anything. There is always the option to quit the shop if that is where the pressure is coming from. I suppose my question would be that if the student complained to PADI that they completed the skills, would PADI request that the Instructor sign them off or risk punishment by PADI? Is there a negative consequence to NOT signing someone off who completed the required skills but not to the level of proficiency mandated by the Instructor?

 

[rockjock3]

On that I agree. You are correct in that nothing mandates that anyone do anything. There is always the option to quit the shop if that is where the pressure is coming from. I suppose my question would be that if the student complained to PADI that they completed the skills, would PADI request that the Instructor sign them off or risk punishment by PADI? Is there a negative consequence to NOT signing someone off who completed the required skills but not to the level of proficiency mandated by the Instructor?

Good point. That, I cannot answer. I would hope there wouldn't be any recourse for the student, via PADI. I would hope that PADI would support the instructor, as they are looking out for their own/PADI's liability if they certify a dangerous diver.

On a side note. I might get to dive you you in the coming years. My family and I are moving to Warner Robins Next month and it looks like much of my diving will be in the Atlanta area.

 

[ScubaDocER]

On a side note. I might get to dive you you in the coming years. My family and I are moving to Warner Robins Next month and it looks like much of my diving will be in the Atlanta area.

If you are coming from Hawaii to Warner Robbins then you will have a serious culture shock in terms of diving . Atlanta is about 2 hours north of WR. There isn't anywhere to dive really in the Atlanta area. I usually dive in Pelham, Alabama at a place called Alabama Blue Water Adventures. There is a quarry in Athens Tenn. called Loch Low Minn. Otherwise I head to Florida which may be closer to you being in WR. I think Cave Country is about 3-4 hours away from WR. Let me know when you get here and we'll find a place to play in the water

 

[AggieDad]

As a PADI instructor I have not been pressured to certify a student that I did not feel capable by my shop. Students are required by PADI standards and instructor judgment to MASTER the Knowledge Development and Water skills. In the PADI Instructor Manual OW Guide this is the definition of Mastery.

During the Confined Water Dives,
mastery is defined as performing
the skill so it meets the stated
performance requirements in a
reasonably comfortable, fluid,
repeatable manner as would be
expected of an Open Water Diver.
A student who manages to meet the
stated performance requirements in
such a way that it raises a question
as to whether the student could reliably
perform the skill for multiple
repetitions has not met the definition
of mastery


This is what I use. Just doing the skill once and not being relatively confident is not mastery in my opinion and is backed up by PADI. I use various techniques (many learned here from vastly more qualified and experienced instructors) to reach this with my students.

 

[leapfrog]

My understanding of PADI's S&P is that if a student completes the skills, regardless of their proficiency in doing so, they must be certified. Since I am not a PADI Instructor, please don't hold me to that understanding.

The student has to master the skill. During Confined Water Dives, mastery is defined as performing the skill so it meets the stated performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid repeatable maner as would be expected of an Open Water Diver. A student who manages to meet the stated performance requirements in such a way that it raises a question as to whether the student could reliably perform the skill for multiple repetitions has NOT met the definition of mastery.

It is what I have gleaned from reading other posts made by PADI Instructors.

Well, it's the instructor not the agency who has it wrong then (one of the most famous and repeated phrases on Scubaboard)

If that is the case, then it is the agency that is limiting the Instructor, rather than encouraging the Instructor to seek a higher level of proficiency.

I think this has all now been covered.

 

[ScubaDocER]

I think this has all now been covered.

IMO it has not been covered nearly enough.

 

[leapfrog]

IMO it has not been covered nearly enough.

Please elaborate:blinking:

 

[ScubaDocER]

Please elaborate:blinking:

Certainly

While it has been discussed on SB quite as bit, it is through that discussion that we will hopefully facilitate change. Change that will hopefully include standards that Instructors can include directly as opposed to having to find ways to "interpret" them such that they can accomplish their goal of producing quality students. Freedom to educate students in a manner that best serves the student instead of rigid approaches that may not fit either the Instructors natural style or the students learning style. If enough people, both professional and non professional members of the diving community, continue to push the educational needs of the Instructors and the students above the needs of some to simply satisfy a financial spreadsheet then we may actually improve the standards themselves.

Part of where I think the disconnect exists is that there does not seem to be a good way for the agency to truly get and process feedback from those of us on the battle field so to speak. Many Instructors seem to feel that the standards are less than what they should be. After seeing and understanding what they are referring to, I have to admit that they have a point. While it is nice to see this discussion take place on SB, it would be better if this discussion took place within the upper echelon of the agencies elite. If Instructors had more of a voice in the direction that the agency is moving, then those who feel the standards are substandard would have a means to improve them. It is the lack of discussion that would lead to the perpetuation of poorly educated Instructors and even more poorly trained students.

One of the things that I really appreciate SB for is the ability to interact with what I believe are some of the best educational minds in the business. I have learned SO much from their suggestions, advice, and their motivation to push me to teach beyond what I learned in my ITC. I had no idea that I could. Or exactly how to do that. After reading the posts of some of these educated Instructors, I have a clearer plan as to what kind of Instructor I want to be and the kind of student I want to produce. Before that, my vision was quite cloudy. Without their questioning of the standards, their pushing me to think beyond my initial boundaries, or introducing me to different ways to expand my teaching curriculum, I would be producing substandard students. I agree with them that what is considered the "basics" that a student should be required to know should be increased. There is a notion that it is alright to produce a watered down version of what a "real" diver should look like. That people don't want to invest the time or energy into becoming accomplished divers even at the beginning level. This seems counter intuitive to me. The agency should set the standard that is enforced and maintained by the professional members of the agency. Set a higher standard and enforce the higher standard and that is what the diving community will come to expect from its educational courses and its Instructors. It is those who produce the watered down version that do the rest of us a disservice. They introduce to the diving community that a substandard approach is available and convince them that that is all they will need to know to dive. If you don't introduce substandard teaching, then divers wont expect it. The dive community wont endorse it. Establish a criteria and stand by it. It is through dialogues such as the one you and I are having leapfrog that will hopefully reach those who will become CDs and BODs. If they can hear our voices before they sit at the big table, then perhaps when they do occupy that seat they will remember what we have shared with them and hopefully seek to improve the standards by which all divers are certified. This concept, IMO, cannot be discussed enough.

 

[leapfrog]

ScubaDocER,

I agree with just about everything you are saying and my experience with Scubaboard is just about identical to yours.

A couple of things I would say:

1. A lot of opinions are given here by people who haven't actually bothered to read or look up the standards of the agencies they are criticizing.

2. When we talk about "interpretation" by instructors, sometimes its because those same people became instructors without having a proper command of the language they became instructors in, so they don't understand definitions of words like mastery, even if the agency then goes on to actually define it in the Manual.

3. It's easy to blame the agencies. Yes, I agree with what you are saying. As somebody who would like to continue my training as much as I can within financial and time constraints (right now I am dirt poor and have little available time), maybe one day I might sit at one of those tables. Who knows? (Dreams are free!) I believe in the concept "let's change the Church from within" rather than being on the outside and slanging it.

4. If we are in the state we are today, it's because the the dive shops and some instructors actually asked for the OW syllabus to be chopped up into little pieces making each certification level less expensive and time consuming. That has been a boon to the Resort industry (come spend a few days in ******** and become a diver for a couple of hundred bucks with no sweat.). It's also signalled the long agony and eventual demise of many more "serious" dive centers and independent instructors "back home", wherever that may be.

5. It's easy and at the same time pretty rough to say "the market decides" but it does. If we have eLearning it's because that's what people want. If people want to do their OW in three, four days maximum in a resort location that's what they'll get. As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for, you may well get it.

6. Most of us here on the Board are interested in quality training but that doesn't mean the general public is, so where do we go from here? Scubaboard has already done the industry a huge service by allowing freedom of speech in a new medium that is not censored except when people are rude, malicious or off topic. That's a beginning. I've also seen the growth of many of us here from "my agency is better" - "no it's not" - "your agency sucks" - "well what about yours?" to a more pragmatic approach such as the one you suggest.

Although it is always important to know how we got to where we are now, it rarely helps in life to dwell on what might have been done. The question is "WHAT DO WE DO NOW?"