PADI vs NAUI

[Walter]

Part of where I think the disconnect exists is that there does not seem to be a good way for the agency to truly get and process feedback from those of us on the battle field so to speak.

Most agencies don't want to hear this type of feedback. Talk to MikeFerrara, he's tried many times to get standards changed.

If Instructors had more of a voice in the direction that the agency is moving, then those who feel the standards are substandard would have a means to improve them. It is the lack of discussion that would lead to the perpetuation of poorly educated Instructors and even more poorly trained students.

Very true. Those agencies in which instructors have more of a voice are responsive and are looking for ways to improve. When YMCA was teaching SCUBA, I wrote to the advisory committee about a change I'd like to see, explaining the change and why I thought it was a good idea. They made the change at their next meeting. Now that SEI has taken over where YMCA left off, they are even more responsive. SEI dropped several of the specialties YMCA once offered. In a recent instructor survey, I indicated I'd like to see a wreck specialty similar to the YMCA wreck specialty. The director of program development read my response and contacted me to encourage me to write the program, offering assistance with the project, if needed. I'm currently working on the program.

The question is "WHAT DO WE DO NOW?"

Some agencies only look at the bottom line. If it's good for the profit margin, they'll do it. If it's not, it aint happening. If you want to see change in standards, you have to make that change attractive to the agency you want to change.

Many agencies have low standards. They have low standards because a fast class sells better than a long one. Low standards make fast classes possible. If enough instructors stopped selling classes from agencies with low standards, it would reduce profits for those agencies. They would then rethink their business model and make changes to bring their profits back up.

I believe in the concept "let's change the Church from within" rather than being on the outside and slanging it.

A great goal, but it aint gonna happen. Go to the church across the street where you'll find like minded parishioners. That will fit your needs better and you'll be much happier.

If we are in the state we are today, it's because the the dive shops and some instructors actually asked for the OW syllabus to be chopped up into little pieces making each certification level less expensive and time consuming.

It came from the agencies, not from the instructors.

The question is "WHAT DO WE DO NOW?"

Crossover to an agency with high standards and tell the agency you've left why you left.

 

[leapfrog]

Some agencies only look at the bottom line. If it's good for the profit margin, they'll do it. If it's not, it aint happening. If you want to see change in standards, you have to make that change attractive to the agency you want to change.

You are right. I agree.

Many agencies have low standards. They have low standards because a fast class sells better than a long one. Low standards make fast classes possible. If enough instructors stopped selling classes from agencies with low standards, it would reduce profits for those agencies. They would then rethink their business model and make changes to bring their profits back up.

Cartesian logic.

A great goal, but it aint gonna happen. Go to the church across the street where you'll find like minded parishioners. That will fit your needs better and you'll be much happier.

Where I live and work there are no churches across the street with like minded parishoners. There maybe some very small ones in the neighborhood but they are only concerned with the fact the name of their church sounds different than my one. There are no differences in the essence. I could become a prophet for a new religion, but the guys running that religion would also just try to take my money from me to get certified by them and then they'd sit back to wait and see if I got any converts. They sure wouldn't put their hand in their pocket to promote the new religion!

It came from the agencies, not from the instructors.

I'm listening, tell me more.

Crossover to an agency with high standards and tell the agency you've left why you left.

I could crossover to another agency and I wouldn't have lo leave the one I'm with. So far, I haven't found an agency that convinces me that it has really higher standards, has a workable model for use in Europe, are willing to promote it, is committed to ongoing education both for divers and instructors and importantly that anyone here is even remotely interested in paying a higher whack, spending more time and perceive the benefit of the higher training.

In fact it isn't until people have actually had some training with a "lower standards" agency that a small percentage of them think they would like something more challenging yet more rewarding.

 

[rivers]

I've been reading through this thread for the past hour or so. While I cannot comment on which agency is better as I am PADI certified (and only have been for 3 months), I can comment on the experience of my certification (and to a degree, my girlfriend's as we were certified together). Maybe I just had a really good instructor, but I did not encounter any of the issues with PADI that people are complaining about.
Here is a run down of my experiences:
1. We had 5 days of classes and dives, 6-7 hours each day. Because we work on a cruise ship, this was done over the course of 5 cruises in Cozumel through Dive Paradise.
2. All of our quizzes and our final exam was closed book. We went over each quiz and the final, discussing any questions that may have been wrong. My girlfriend only got one of the dive table questions wrong, and we went over a few more examples to make sure that we knew how to use the dive tables correctly.
3. We were first taught the fin pivot in our first confined water dive. After that dive, we were taught to hover at 15 ft or so, and we had to do so for at least 3 minutes. We also had to maintain neutral buoyancy while horizontal and swimming throughout our dives.
4. We only did one day in the pool, to learn some of the more difficult skills such as CESA, donning and doffing underwater, no mask breathing, replacing a mask underwater, etc. Later that day, we did them all in our open water dive. The rest of our confined water dives were done in about 15 ft water behind hotel barracuda followed by an open water dive.
5. We had to do a 200 m surface swim (which is required by PADI). I was allowed to wear my mask since it is prescription and I have pretty horrendous eyesight (over -6.00 each eye), and if I hadn't worn my mask, I know I wouldn't have made the swim. Not because I couldn't do, but because I can't see, especially if the sun is brightly shining.
6. We worked on skills we were not comfortable doing until we were. My girlfriend did not like the initial descent during our first confined water dive. Once we were underwater, she was still uncomfortable. Our instructor worked with her until she was. I had trouble with underwater mask replacement. The traditional way of clearing a mask (looking up) did not work for me, and my instructor had me look down instead. I was made to clear my mask in our final check out dive repeatedly, until I could do it, more than once, calmly. This included partial flood, full flood, and underwater replacement. This was also done in varying conditions. While we were on our final check out dive, we could be in the middle of exploring, and my instructor would have me flood my mask, or replace it while moving, or sometimes while kneeling. Point is, he made sure we were both comfortable and confident in everything.

We have made a few boat dives in Cozumel with friends since being certified. Another couple, who were certified last year in St. Thomas I believe (also by PADI), have made comments that we were taught a whole lot more than they were, even though it was the same agency. We were shown to always break the surface with our hands first, as opposed to our heads breaking the surface, in case there were any dangers above water. They also noticed how conscious that my girlfriend and I are of ourselves, our surroundings and each other while diving, making sure that everything is okay, we haven't drifted too far from each other or the group, we have enough air, aren't getting freaked out by anything, or even just making sure we have the other's attention to point out something we think is cool.

Also, this is a direct quote from the Dive Paradise website regarding certification: "Though we cannot guarantee certification, we will work with problem students as long as possible (and your stay in Cozumel permits!)." Just figured I would point that out since Dive Paradise is a PADI agency... (as well as NAUI and SSI I think. A majority of their classes our PADI however)

 

[ScubaDocER]

I've been reading through this thread for the past hour or so. While I cannot comment on which agency is better as I am PADI certified (and only have been for 3 months), I can comment on the experience of my certification (and to a degree, my girlfriend's as we were certified together). Maybe I just had a really good instructor, but I did not encounter any of the issues with PADI that people are complaining about.
Here is a run down of my experiences:
1. We had 5 days of classes and dives, 6-7 hours each day. Because we work on a cruise ship, this was done over the course of 5 cruises in Cozumel through Dive Paradise.
2. All of our quizzes and our final exam was closed book. We went over each quiz and the final, discussing any questions that may have been wrong. My girlfriend only got one of the dive table questions wrong, and we went over a few more examples to make sure that we knew how to use the dive tables correctly.
3. We were first taught the fin pivot in our first confined water dive. After that dive, we were taught to hover at 15 ft or so, and we had to do so for at least 3 minutes. We also had to maintain neutral buoyancy while horizontal and swimming throughout our dives.
4. We only did one day in the pool, to learn some of the more difficult skills such as CESA, donning and doffing underwater, no mask breathing, replacing a mask underwater, etc. Later that day, we did them all in our open water dive. The rest of our confined water dives were done in about 15 ft water behind hotel barracuda followed by an open water dive.
5. We had to do a 200 m surface swim (which is required by PADI). I was allowed to wear my mask since it is prescription and I have pretty horrendous eyesight (over -6.00 each eye), and if I hadn't worn my mask, I know I wouldn't have made the swim. Not because I couldn't do, but because I can't see, especially if the sun is brightly shining.
6. We worked on skills we were not comfortable doing until we were. My girlfriend did not like the initial descent during our first confined water dive. Once we were underwater, she was still uncomfortable. Our instructor worked with her until she was. I had trouble with underwater mask replacement. The traditional way of clearing a mask (looking up) did not work for me, and my instructor had me look down instead. I was made to clear my mask in our final check out dive repeatedly, until I could do it, more than once, calmly. This included partial flood, full flood, and underwater replacement. This was also done in varying conditions. While we were on our final check out dive, we could be in the middle of exploring, and my instructor would have me flood my mask, or replace it while moving, or sometimes while kneeling. Point is, he made sure we were both comfortable and confident in everything.

We have made a few boat dives in Cozumel with friends since being certified. Another couple, who were certified last year in St. Thomas I believe (also by PADI), have made comments that we were taught a whole lot more than they were, even though it was the same agency. We were shown to always break the surface with our hands first, as opposed to our heads breaking the surface, in case there were any dangers above water. They also noticed how conscious that my girlfriend and I are of ourselves, our surroundings and each other while diving, making sure that everything is okay, we haven't drifted too far from each other or the group, we have enough air, aren't getting freaked out by anything, or even just making sure we have the other's attention to point out something we think is cool.

Also, this is a direct quote from the Dive Paradise website regarding certification: "Though we cannot guarantee certification, we will work with problem students as long as possible (and your stay in Cozumel permits!)." Just figured I would point that out since Dive Paradise is a PADI agency... (as well as NAUI and SSI I think. A majority of their classes our PADI however)

Sounds like you guys had a great experience. Sounds like you had a great Instructor who made you feel comfortable and confident as a diver while instilling within you a sense of responsibility and buddysmanship. Ultimately, IMO, that should be every Instructors goal. Welcome to the world of diving

I think that what you have been reading in these posts is the belief by some that not every Instructor will do what yours did. Not everyone will take the time, patience, and effort to produce divers who are competent, educated, aware, and self reliant. The discussion, IMO, has revolved around encouraging every diver fit that mold across different agencies to ensure that all divers have an experience similar to yours. I think in the end most Instructors have similar goals. Often times, other things sometimes obscure those goals. The issue to me is that if the different agencies mandate standards that include some of the experiences you had, then we (the diving educators) would produce a better end product. I cannot comment on whether your Instructor stuck to the standards in teaching you, but the end product sounds like a good one.

 

[cloudswinger]

Also, this is a direct quote from the Dive Paradise website regarding certification: "Though we cannot guarantee certification, we will work with problem students as long as possible (and your stay in Cozumel permits!)." Just figured I would point that out since Dive Paradise is a PADI agency... (as well as NAUI and SSI I think. A majority of their classes our PADI however)

It seems to me that when an instructor is part of multiple agencies like that, it's hard to separate the instructional techniques. If one agency truly has lower standards than another, as an instructor of both, how can you honestly leave out material that you would have taught if the students had signed up for the other agencies' curriculum? I'd think you'd teach to the more rigorous standard and evaluate at the standard of the agency requested by the student.

 

[rivers]

It seems to me that when an instructor is part of multiple agencies like that, it's hard to separate the instructional techniques. If one agency truly has lower standards than another, as an instructor of both, how can you honestly leave out material that you would have taught if the students had signed up for the other agencies' curriculum? I'd think you'd teach to the more rigorous standard and evaluate at the standard of the agency requested by the student.

My instructor was only PADI certified. There were other instructors who were both NAUI and PADI that I saw. As I have said, most of their classes (including OW) are PADI classes. For OW and AOW they only offered the PADI class.

 

[mathauck0814]

I'll go out on a limb here as a new guy and give you my perspective on this debate. I've just read 19 pages (and am uncrossing my eyes subsequently) of this thread and I think that as instructors you're missing the boat entirely.

I have a rescue diver with several specialty certifications and dive very regularly (2-3 times per week). I have done all PADI courses to this point. I'll say that I have no qualms with anything that I was taught and never felt like there was a gap.

The dominant theme that I've read here is that so-and-so runs a program that requires 100+ hours of commitment from a prospective student in order to become certified. For those instructors not running absurdly long programs, there's support for programs which run longer than whatever PADI is mandating. Let me give you some insights into how my girlfriend and I shop for diver training.

We travel extensively for our jobs and we have customers in some of the most dive rich environments on the planet. Diver certification was about getting some quality time in on the weekends when we were in Sharm, Cairns, Hawaii, etc. When the question of an open water course came up, we paid little mind to what agency we would go with but rather the time commitment that it would require. We quickly determined through discussions with several of the LDS in the area that none of their programs would meet our scheduling needs in a group setting; so we went about looking for a private instructor who could do the job quickly. We found this in our PADI LDS. Said differently, I would have hung up on you had you suggested I take 100 hours of my time to participate in your classroom setting. Maybe we missed some key skills, maybe we didn't.

The point is we stayed with that instructor through advanced and rescue class as well because we were able to do this in a private setting (2 students, 1 instructor) and polish off classes quickly. This made it fun and available.

If the concern is that divers drop out of diving after becoming open water certified I'd say that is a better problem to have than the one which will result from your proposed prolonged class. If you cannot find ways to more efficiently train people you won't get the chance to lose them as divers. People only have so much recreational time and they're constantly being squeezed to find ways to optimize that.

600 or so dives later, I'm certain that I don't care about any of the skills that my open water instructor may or may not have omitted because I got what I needed, the certification required to go out and dive with real divers, experience real issues and be forced to come up with solutions in the real world. Instruction is a part of learning to dive, and I think it's a much smaller part than this community here wants to believe.

The agency that recognizes the need of the market place (those customers that you need to keep selling lessons to) and services those needs is the best agency. The semantics of who requires a longer swim, who can fulfill their egos by arbitrarily passing or failing someone or who can stand in front of a group of students and orate the longest are frankly not factors important to the consumer (and by that I, of course, mean me).

Just my $0.02

 

[Thalassamania]

The dominant theme that I've read here is that so-and-so runs a program that requires 100+ hours of commitment from a prospective student in order to become certified. For those instructors not running absurdly long programs, there's support for programs which run longer than whatever PADI is mandating. Let me give you some insights into how my girlfriend and I shop for diver training.

As perhaps that only one here who runs programs of that length I guess it is incumbent upon me to reply.

...I would have hung up on you had you suggested I take 100 hours of my time to participate in your classroom setting.

Since your time is clearly more valuable than your skill in the water is, or possibly even your life, that would be fine, hang up, it really is not my loss.

... If the concern is that divers drop out of diving after becoming open water certified I'd say that is a better problem to have than the one which will result from your proposed prolonged class. If you cannot find ways to more efficiently train people you won't get the chance to lose them as divers. People only have so much recreational time and they're constantly being squeezed to find ways to optimize that.

Since you clearly know more than I, and more than Jim Stewart, and more than Lee Somers, and more than Lloyd Austin, and more than Glen Egstrom, and more than Walt Hendrick Sr., I guess there is very little that I can tell you.

600 or so dives later, I'm certain that I don't care about any of the skills that my open water instructor may or may not have omitted because I got what I needed, the certification required to go out and dive with real divers, experience real issues and be forced to come up with solutions in the real world. Instruction is a part of learning to dive, and I think it's a much smaller part than this community here wants to believe.

Reminds me of something I posted back in 2006, refering to myself in 1972:

I was already a diver, at least I thought of myself that way. I’d been diving for more than 10 years, and had made about 500 dives. That’s about the point in every diver’s career that they know everything there is to know...

Part of how Ken accomplished this almost miraculous transformation involved the use of some truly unique training exercises ...

The point being that I was a fairly experienced and seasoned diver, I had already been diving lots of places and done lots of things (hell ... by that point I'd even worked on a Cousteau special) but yet when I took the 100 hour course at Cal I learned how to be a much better diver than I had been previously, I learned an immense number of things, not the lest of which was that every graduate of that course was both more knowledgeable and skilled in the water at the end of the course than I had been at the start of it. But then, as you so clearly state, your time is way too valuable for any thing like that.

 

[mathauck0814]

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. However, your proposed solution to diver retention suggests that if I value my life I should enroll in such a program. It occurs to me that even if your program were wildly successful, what percentage of the diver community are you actually servicing? Of those, can you provide real data to support the fact that your program increases the overall safety of those divers you've trained?

Obviously you have a vast degree of experience in the sport, I'm not contesting that. You are, however, making a few assumptions that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with. First of all, you're assuming that my instructor must have missed something. I am uncertain if that's the case. I would contest that what I'm suggesting is not a watering down of skills transfered but rather a swap to a more efficient delivery model. Being in a leadership position in the space (judging from your profile) I would assume that you'd be somehow incented to delivery a quality product with less effort (ups your margin and volume, no?). As I mentioned we were able to do things more quickly in a private setting - perhaps there's something there worth looking into? Maybe large classes that take place over several weeks is the issue?

I think your assertion that in order to learn to dive properly/recreationally should require one to travel to Cal to take a course you self assert you are the only one running is perhaps a little bit off the mark and that your expectations for the amount of time that people would invest in a leisure activity are likely more in line with your own personal priorities than with those of the market place at large. If every diver had to take time off work to travel to take your course over xyz period of time, you'd have a fair fewer divers in the overall community.

Be careful with assertions like that, you're a leader and can influence others with your tone. The message you're sending with posts like your previous one is that the rest of us needn't bother. Perhaps people will hear that and take up golf? How is that good for you?

 

[Thalassamania]

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. However, your proposed solution to diver retention suggests that if I value my life I should enroll in such a program. It occurs to me that even if your program were wildly successful, what percentage of the diver community are you actually servicing? Of those, can you provide real data to support the fact that your program increases the overall safety of those divers you've trained?

Our success in not measured by the number of students, that's marketeering tautology. Our success is measured by our extremely low DCS, injury and fatality rates which are recognized to be orders of magnitude lower, despite more challenging, task oriented, diving. And yes, all that data is available, in far more detail than it is for the recreational world, since every dive within the scientific diving community is logged at the sponsoring institution, and all work loss injuries must be reported.

Obviously you have a vast degree of experience in the sport, I'm not contesting that. You are, however, making a few assumptions that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with.

I make very few assumptions, I deal in the demonstrable. Problems with your personal comfort are solely your own.

First of all, you're assuming that my instructor must have missed something.

Rather clearly the case. Either that or your instructor is way, way better than I (or those who have run similar programs for the past 60 years). Are we all wasting everyone's time? Or perhaps, without the confines of having to do everything as cheaply as possible, might we have learned something?

I am uncertain if that's the case.

I'm quite certain that it is the case.

I would contest that what I'm suggesting is not a watering down of skills transfered but rather a swap to a more efficient delivery model.

You have a right to your opinion, I guess that you think that you are in a better position to judge than am I and all the folks that I mentioned earlier.

Being in a leadership position in the space (judging from your profile) I would assume that you'd be somehow incented to delivery a quality product with less effort (ups your margin and volume, no?).

I guess you can not conceive of something being done because it is the right way to do it without consideration of "margins" or "volumes." My goals have always been to optimize the learning of skills and knowledge while minimizing risks. "Costs" only enters into the equation when I consider if I am overshooting appropriate maxima or minima and thus increasing time or effort without return ... rest assured that this is a question that have been carefully considered by several generations of the best in the field for over sixty years; and the conclusions remain basically the same, 100 hours and 12 dives.

As I mentioned we were able to do things more quickly in a private setting - perhaps there's something there worth looking into? Maybe large classes that take place over several weeks is the issue?

No, we typically teach with one staff member for every two students. The standard working group is a buddy pair of staff to two buddy pairs of students.

I think your assertion that in order to learn to dive properly/recreationally should require one to travel to Cal to take a course you self assert you are the only one running is perhaps a little bit off the mark and that your expectations for the amount of time that people would invest in a leisure activity are likely more in line with your own personal priorities than with those of the market place at large. If every diver had to take time off work to travel to take your course over xyz period of time, you'd have a fair fewer divers in the overall community.

The "market place at large" is a complete irrelevancy to me, it does not effect me and doubt if it ever will. You have the freedom to engage in whatever sort of training (or lack thereof) that you wish. I was able to do all the diving I wanted to in the 1950s and 1960s, so the growth of the "diving industry" has really had little or no effect on my ability to go diving, or to enjoy diving.

Be careful with assertions like that, you're a leader and can influence others with your tone. The message you're sending with posts like your previous one is that the rest of us needn't bother. Perhaps people will hear that and take up golf? How is that good for you?

I'm not suggesting that you not bother, what I'm telling you is that you've been sold a bill of goods concerning your readiness to dive and competence to handle yourself in the water. You've been brainwashed into the idea that following behind a DM in the Caribbean with another DM bringing up the rear, or that a plunge into an aquarium tank at Disney is an "adventure."

You've been lead to believe that adequate buoyancy and trim skills and basic rescue skills, and a knowledge of actual diving planning are so unimportant to your diving that they can wait till you're ready to take a separate course. You're told that even without such skills and knowledge you are ready to go diving, "with a similarly qualified buddy buddy under conditions that are similar to those in which you trained," when the reality is that most divers coming out of an entry level course are even qualified to judge when conditions or similar and have no idea of how fast conditions can change, what they can change to, and how to handle such changes.