Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)

[mjatkins]

Look, if you have a copy of the exam (I don't care if you have the "answer key" or not) that is a huge advantage. They had worked the same problems that were on the exam many times...the entire week in fact, I found out later.

I am sure they know there is massive cheating going on...why else would you sell the test?

So...you don't think having seen the exact math questions is helpful if you don't have the answer key?...amazing


They have seen the problems and worked them before they get the exam, thats what I am saying.


No..I don't report standards violations, because I don't respect the standards, basically.

Catherine, perhaps I'm not following very well, but if I'm understanding you correctly you are still talking about the exam being for sale to DM candidates. I think it's fairly clear by now that as far as I can tell, there is no way for a DM candidate to purchase the exam from PADI. It is not in the manual. The answer key is in the manual (not the exams) and it would appear that PADI is making an effort to keep this away from DM candidates untill they have finished their course.

I understand your frustration at having the other DM candidates cheat by obtaining copies of the test before the test was given. If we have ascertained that PADI didn't give it to them, and you will not speak out about about it, it would seem that holding PADI accountable for it is not justified.

Thanks

 

[Cacia]

It doesn't matter...this all started because I said that I had "an impression" and you challenged me on it. So, I gave some examples for my impression after taking many very fun certifications from PADI about why I thought they werte not as rigorous as NAUI, GUE.

It's my opinion and people can take it or leave it, I won't be offended. I don't hold PADI accountable, only myself if I continue to write them checks. I think PADI is a good fit for a lot of people

 

[mjatkins]

Here's the problem with PADI:
Their standards are so low, I can't limbo under them.

I'm not hoping to get SparticleBrane's underwear in a twist, but I would like to make the point that this is exactly the sort of thing that I personally find extremely frustrating.

We all come to this board to learn, share, debate and discuss. Everyone comes from different backgrounds and hopes to have their positions considered fairly. Debates sometimes turn heated, but rarely denigrate to the level of name calling and the like. Catherine and I have been having a heated exchange in this thread (which honestly was probably brought about by me being more aggressive that needed in my first post) but it has served a useful purpose, at least for myself. I have acquired some materials (thanks Neil) to learn from, and some good points have been raised.

Then out of the blue along comes a comment like the one above. It offers no insight into anything (except possibly the psyche of the poster) and serves only one purpose, to slam an agency. Another member asks a pointed question "have you ever seen the standards", and it's ignored and glossed over. Having looked at SparticleBrane's profile I see no reported history of having any dealings with PADI or their standards.

I have seen several people jump to the defense of SparticleBrane in a different thread, so obviously there are folks who would say he's a fine diver and someone who's opinion should be respected (I don't know him from Adam and am not making that judgment either way). Which gets me back to my point. This is a public forum and what is said here gets taken seriously by some of the people watching.

Doesn't everyone here deserve better than this?

 

[neil]

Have you actually read the standards...

That's not as easy as it may seem, IMO. Opening up my admittedly old OW Instructor manual, I started to look for the standards for the OW course. Here's what I found so far:

~50 "Performance Requirements" for confined water.
~55 "Performance Requirements" for OW
~239 "Knowledge" requirements conveniently listed in question form, separated by module.

It's no easy task figuring out exactly what the standards are. From the 55 OW exercises we can distill the essential skills. Something like 18, depending on what you consider a discrete, essential skill. From the 239 questions I can figure out what they need to know. Eventually.
Bottom line is, with PADI you don't need to know the standards for the course, you just need to follow the program as presented. (I make, at this point, no judgement on that. Some like it, some don't) In fact, the manual says you don't have to present the 239 questions because the students will see the material in the book and video. If there is, in one place, a standards overview of the OW course, I'd like to see it. Otherwise you have to extrapolate it from all over the manual.

Have YOU read the standards?

 

[rawls]

That's not as easy as it may seem, IMO. Opening up my admittedly old OW Instructor manual, I started to look for the standards for the OW course. Here's what I found so far:

~50 "Performance Requirements" for confined water.
~55 "Performance Requirements" for OW
~239 "Knowledge" requirements conveniently listed in question form, separated by module.

It's no easy task figuring out exactly what the standards are. From the 55 OW exercises we can distill the essential skills. Something like 18, depending on what you consider a discrete, essential skill. From the 239 questions I can figure out what they need to know. Eventually.
Bottom line is, with PADI you don't need to know the standards for the course, you just need to follow the program as presented. (I make, at this point, no judgement on that. Some like it, some don't) In fact, the manual says you don't have to present the 239 questions because the students will see the material in the book and video. If there is, in one place, a standards overview of the OW course, I'd like to see it. Otherwise you have to extrapolate it from all over the manual.

You don't need to know the standards for the course? And you say you are an instructor? You are kidding right? They are in bold print...

Have YOU read the standards?

Yes I have...And I review them frequently...and unlike yours, they are current. Hope that answers your question...

 

[Steve50]

Doesn't everyone here deserve better than this?

yes...

 

[markrovner]

You know, if you go all the way back to the start of this thread, the original poster was raising an interesting question that got left in the dust by -- forgive me -- a barroom brawl about whose certifying agency has bigger, um, manuals.

How far do any of the certifying agencies go to ensure that out of country DOs are operating within their prescribed standards? I buy it that they depend on travelers' reports, but then what? Are there published instances of SSI or NAUI or PADI "de-certifying" an operation? Are those made public, like the restaurants that get closed down for health code violations? If not, why not?

 

[SparticleBrane]

Having looked at SparticleBrane's profile I see no reported history of having any dealings with PADI or their standards.

Correct--I have never taken a PADI class. However, I have worked at a LDS and I have been in contact with many PADI divers (especially those straight out of open water classes). In my humble and quite inexperienced opinion, many are misinformed and shouldn't be in the water in their current skill set.
On a slightly different topic, I disagree with the idea that you can't teach beyond the standards.

From what I have seen thus far (I would like someone to prove me wrong, in all seriousness), PADI seems to produce non-thinking divers. Those who you ask about why something is the way it is, and their only answer is "that's what the book says" or "because my instructor said so". Only later on in a more advanced class from an agency that isn't PADI do they start to question their initial teachings.

I would much rather have a longer, more challenging, and more informative basic where people are actually in control of their dives after certification. I feel that many divers today leave the sport because their find the lack of control on their own dives to be frustrating, or they didn't have an enjoyable experience (popped their ears from bouncing up and down due to bad buoyancy control, ran out of air due to no situational awareness and no gas management planning, etc).

While meant as a slight jab to PADI, my initial post was meant to be humorous and elicit a laugh from readers. Guess it jabbed a bit too hard?

 

[neil]

You don't need to know the standards for the course? And you say you are an instructor? You are kidding right? They are in bold print...

I don't know why you feel the need to insult me, but if it makes you feel manly....
In theory, one doesn't need to know the standards. All you have to do is follow the script. I'm not saying this is good, I'm just stating it. Nor am I saying that I do it. I know they are in bold print. In blue, no less. AND, I have made a decision NEVER to kid here any more. All seriousness, all the time.

Yes I have...And I review them frequently...and unlike yours, they are current. Hope that answers your question...

Actually, I have a brand new manual on CD. I checked it against my old paper copy. Nothing changes, I've kept it up to date.
Yes, that answers my question. Thank you contributing so ably with the conversation.

 

[neil]

....... my initial post was meant to be humorous and elicit a laugh from readers. Guess it jabbed a bit too hard?

For G'd's sake, people, USE SMILIES!!!!!!