Oversight of Dive shops by Dive Agencies (PADI, NAUI, etc.)

[TeddyDiver]

It bothers me that many Divemasters cannot calculate percentages, yet somehow miraculously pass the written exam.

They teach that in schools elsewhere around the world. Maybe you should too in the US

 

[neil]

OK, how much more math? Fairly involved in what way that PADI's isn't

Page 2.30, NAUI S&P:

"Measure, record and calculate individual air consumption (as surface air consumption rate) using a submersible pressure gauge, depth gauge and timing device"

"Plan and make a no-required-decompression stop dive.............etc. Planning is to consider at a mimimum: adequate breathing gas supply for descent, time at depth, ascent, precautionary stop and safety margin"

Both of those require more math than is required in the PADI OW course. Whether that makes it better is a matter of opinion, but there's the facts.

 

[sytech]

Having started this "tread" I was wondering if anyone has taken the NAUI Nitrox Course?


If so, is anyone aware of somewhere I can find a description in writing of what the course is supposed to be comprised of? At the NAUI site it's a very general description. I'm sure a dive shop owner would have literature from NAUI clearly stating what they have to do and provide to be in conformity with offering a "NAUI Nitrox Course".


I am expecting to hear from NAUI on this matter today and want to make sure that what the rep. says squares with that of another source. While I've been quite satisfied with the NAUI courses I've taken (except for this incident regarding the guy in San Andres, Columbia trying to charge me extra for "course materials") I'm finding this whole matter of Agencies vis a vis Dive shops to be very sleazy.



Sy

I have no idea, I've never read the NAUI OW text. It is in the YMCA text.

BTW, I wasn't "saying" anything. I was merely asking you a question.

 

[Scuba Cowboy]

"IN MY OPINION... a required waiting period or number of dives should be required between OW and AOW... not necessarily a good 'business model'... but probably better for a student of diving... experience in the water can make the next educational step infinately more valuable from an educational basis."

J.R., taking a course is gaining experience. Its a diving course, therefore diving, gaining experience. I think divers should take AOW right after OW to gain more experience, and because they are new, they're doing it under supervision. I think people have the wrong idea because its called Advanced. You don't need to practice before a course, practice what you learn after the course.

 

[sytech]

I guess that's why students throughout the World are flying (or sledding) to Norway & Finland for higher education and not the USA, right?,

Sy

They teach that in schools elsewhere around the world. Maybe you should too in the US

 

[sytech]

mjatkins,

I think your avatar is hilarious and speaks volumes in this thread.

Sy

Thanks for the info on GUE, I look forward to reviewing it. But surely someone who is as familiar as yourself with both the NAUI and PADI standards could come up with some of the huge differences you mentioned. If it's that big a difference, and you are confidant that you know what you are talking about, surely you have at least a partial list that you can recite.

Thanks for jumping into the conversation, the more opinions the better.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

J.R., taking a course is gaining experience. Its a diving course, therefore diving, gaining experience. I think divers should take AOW right after OW to gain more experience, and because they are new, they're doing it under supervision. I think people have the wrong idea because its called Advanced.

I disagree with this sentiment ... furthermore,I think that marketing AOW in this manner is the primary reason why so many threads exist on ScubaBoard where people are complaining that they don't learn anything in their AOW class.

You don't need to practice before a course, practice what you learn after the course.

This statement appears to contradict what you just said [which I bolded] above.

In my opinion - one of the biggest problems with how AOW classes get marketed is that it becomes just five more dives with an instructor/. That isn't a class ... it's five guided dives. You don't need to pay an instructor for that kind of experience.

A class should involve actual instruction ... not a rehash of what you were supposed to have learned in the previous class. It needs to involve building on skills you were supposed to have mastered after having learned them in your previous class ... not struggling with things you haven't had time to practice yet.

I will not accept divers into my AOW class unless they have done some diving since OW ... because it would be the rare student who will have the necessary in-water comfort level to be able to make it through the curriculum. In those rare cases where someone wants to take the class with just a couple of dives since OW, I'll take them for a dive first, and evaluate where they're at before accepting them in the class. If they need more dives, I'll tell them so ... usually help hook them up with a mentor who'll help them get more comfortable with their buoyancy skills a bit first. That way when they take the class they can focus on the core skills I'll be introducing them to in the class.

If all someone wants is a few extra supervised dives, there's less expensive ways to do that than through a class. Join a dive club ... or locate a mentor through forums like ScubaBoard. There are lots of other options. Taking a class should be for the purpose of actually learning something new ... and that's difficult to do when you're still struggling with the basics you were supposed to have learned in the previous class.

FWIW - I've met too many instructors who regard AOW as "easy money" ... and that's just wrong.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[J.R.]

J.R., taking a course is gaining experience. Its a diving course, therefore diving, gaining experience. I think divers should take AOW right after OW to gain more experience, and because they are new, they're doing it under supervision. I think people have the wrong idea because its called Advanced. You don't need to practice before a course, practice what you learn after the course.

Actually, I can see a strong arguement for your perspective. My personal choice would be to recombine them into one course and make sure that when you finish learning to dive... you have a much stronger an longer training period.

My 'personal take' on it though was given from the basis that the certifying agencies HAVE separated them and look at OW as a complete educational package unto itself (which, is validated by the fact that they give you a 'license to dive" at the end of it...) that a completing student should have some time to absorb and practice on their own what they've learned... and to get out into 'the world' with their new knowledge... THEN make (hopefully) a more knowledgeable decision on what more training they desire and how to aquire that training.

I think AOW COULD be a stong learning experience... if there was enough of a gap between OW and AOW for the student to bring something more to the table than a desire to 'go deep' or just continue their education. An example of what I mean is the difference between the perception of college by a kid who comes straight out of high school... and one who has been in the work force for 4 or 5 years and THEN decides to go back to school... its a world of difference in focus. One problem with (if the classes are separate but contiguous)... is that the student hasn't gotten their legs under them yet if they go straight from OW to AOW... which means that they're still working on the 'peas and carrots' while their starting to get desert... again... ONLY MY OPINION BASED ON BEING A STUDENT....

When my wife and I went through AOW... I can guarantee you I got more out of it than she did... WHY? One reason and one reason alone... I've got more years in diving... the ink on her 'C-card' was barely dry... So... the question is... "What is the purpose of SCUBA training?"

I would also strongly agree that calling somebody who comes out of AOW an 'advanced' diver is a misnomer... at least at anything past a selective definition... and, fundimentally, have the same issue with "Master Diver"... I figure that the certifying agencies needed a name... and "More Open Water"... and "Even More Open Water beyond More Open Water" didn't have the same marketing 'ring' to it...

It seems to me that the title reflect more of a tendancy to pander to the customer's ego than it does to reflect an eductaional state... but, again... just my opinion... I'm probably wrong.

Not being nitpicky here, but to compare any AOW course to any Enriched Air course and attempt to determine an agency's substance to fluff ratio is not good practice.

AOW is a lot of trying to determine what a person might be interested in pursuing in diving... Nitrox or Enriched Air is a lot of math and physics.

Comparing a NAUI Nitrox Course to a PADI or SSI or YMCA Nitrox Course is the only way to compare a Nitrox course. And that holds true for anything....

YEP... AND YEP... don't disagree one bit. And I appologize for tagging the 'overall impression' of PADI presentation to NAUI presentation at the end of the thing on NITROX... I can see how it can easily be read that way... my bad...

The observation was actually based on looking at both books for AOW and for NITROX... again... it is a CUSTOMER PERCEPTION... I'm not saying "I'm right"... I'm saying that's how it appeared to me... every student probably has a different take.

With regards to the "real world vs standards" practice, well, it happens all the time in society. People will drink and drive, yet the standard says not to.... People will consume illegal drugs, yet the standard says not to...

... again... couldn't agree more... but no drinking and driving ISN'T a 'standard practice'... its the LAW. Failure to comply is a crime. Prohibitons against drugs is a LAW... Failure to comply... a crime.

Trying to demand that every student have a book to their own... is not a LAW... it is a corporate practice and a mechanism to sell more books under the guise of 'copyright'... (assuming that the agencies REALLY would have a problem with a married couple sharing a book... which I'm not so certain they would... but that's just my opinon... I'm sure SOMEBODY out there could well get a burr under their saddle over it... people get cranked outta' shape over the darndest things these days...)

 

[Walter]

To start with, if you would like to quote me, I would ask that you don't stop quoting me in mid sentence. What I asked was "What is missing from the PADI OW manual, that I will find in the NAUI text? I do not have the NAUI book, or their standards, and would like to know." Taken in this light, your answer about the YMCA is interesting, but has nothing to do with what was asked.

When I'm responding to something you've written, I'll quote the part to which I'm responding. It is not an answer to your question, but it does have to do with what you asked.

And yes, I have heard of idiot sevants. They are people with an amazing ability to do one task but display little aptitude for anything else, at least that's my understanding. Forgive me, but I will need a little help to see the relevence of this statement also. Or are you simply implying that the majority of her classmates were obviously idiot sevants?

Thanks

No, I'm not suggesting Catherine's classmates were idiot savants. I was pointing out an obvious example in which intelligence is not related to memory after you assumed the two were related. They are not.

 

[J.R.]

Having started this "tread" I was wondering if anyone has taken the NAUI Nitrox Course?

YES... I have. Just finished it up less than two months ago.

FOR ME I thought it was a great class. The math and science behind NITROX was well presented... perhaps a bit TOO thoroughly... if that's possible... Some history, understanding of physiology and the 'physics' of NITROX. I liked what felt like a more 'technical' presentation... but that's just me.

When we got ready for NITROX we asked our instructor the differences... basically her response was "NAUI has more math"... I'm sure that either NAUI or PADI will give you a good education on the use of NITROX... but I would suggest you stop by your LDS (or two or three) and...

A: Look at the books to compare them for yourself, brouse through them... talk to the instructor at the LDS about them... and then

B: Talk to your potential instructors to get their take on it

Once you've armed yourself with this... make your own call based on what you feel most comfortable with.

I can tell you what and why I did what I did... but that doesn't really have any validity for anybody but me... we all learn different... and we all have different instructors... and the INSTRUCTOR can have more impact on what and how you learn than the reading material you learn from.

Remember... its YOUR education... you make it what your willing to live with...

My 2 psi... your mileage may vary...