"Open Water Diver Safe Cavern Dives" ???

[JamesK]

OK,... here is my take on this topic based on my own experience. I almost became a cave diving fatality statistic. My buddy talked me into going into Vortex up to the grate. Vortex has also been known to be an "Open Water Diver safe cave(rn)" (notice I use the quotation marks?.... there is no such thing for the untrained). Yes, I certainly knew better,... but not so much why. Curiosity got the better of me, not that it is any kind of excuse, there is none. We went into the cave at dusk. The grate is about 400 ft back & at about 110 ft depth. When we came out, it was dark,... So even if it would have been cavern to the grate,... it was dark, so there was no cavern anyway. We were in the basin (Open Water), but did not know it. The black sky & lack of any kind of light above, looked like the ceiling of the cave. The sheer walls of the basin looked like the walls of the cave. Lost, we went back & forth into & out of the cave trying to figure out where we took a wrong turn. I was running critically low on air. After several more minutes, my buddy figured it out & took off while my back was turned, wiping vis out for a few minutes, he was perched on a ledge above trying to signal me with his light (could not see it) & he was NOT coming back down for me. He was too freaked out. After several more minutes trying to figure out where he went, I finally had the presence of mind to cover my light & could then see him signalling me. I surfaced with waaaaay less than 400psi. Too close for comfort. Many of the basic rules were broken (3/5). The biggest- No training. If so I would have approached this entirely differently. No continuous guideline to open water, if so we would have know that we were in the basin. No gas planning. If so I would not have almost run out of air. You can have 100,000 dives, be the world's best instructor, or even a diving god,.... none of that is enough to replace proper overhead environment training. Sorry. The overhead environment is inherently more risky than open water diving, but with training & applying the training, those risks can be minimized. Thank goodness, with the training I have received, I now know what true danger I put myself, my buddy & anyone who may have had to recover me. I also now realize the agony my decision could have had on my family & friends. My instructor was VERY tough on me, because of this stupid decision I made. he wanted to make absolutely sure I understood the ramifications of those decisions. I realize that no matter what I or any of the others say to support this view, there are those who will not listen because they "think" they know the risks. Do you really? There is absolutely no excuse not to get training to do the dives you want to do. It is affordable & it is readily available. If you don't getthe training for yourself, at least get it for those you love & those who may be affected by your decisions.

Tammy,

I too made some mistakes in my very brief OW days. I started this diving thing for no other reason then to cave dive. I had been in Vortex at the grate a couple of times. Luckily nothing happened to me. I knew the dangers, or I thought I did. It was not until I did Cavern & Intro that I realized how bad of a decision I had made. I have been in two pretty bad situations underwater in a cave. Once in the States, and once in Mexico. This was after my Full Cave training. These are two times where I honestly started thinking I might never get out. Without my training, it is very possible that one of those times might have killed me.

At times I might come off as a prick, and I do apologize for sounding that way. However, I am just a concerned diver who does not want to see anyone get killed, does not want to see the landowners start shutting off access, and does not want to see the government get involved because they will undoubtedly screw something up bad. The people who are warning others are usually trained cave divers. It is not because we want the caves to ourselves and don't want others to do it. It is because it was not until we were a near miss, or we went through our training that we actually saw just how bad things can get and how quick they can get there.

Bottom line, take the time to get trained. The classes are some of the most fun I have had, and I have met some of the greatest people on Earth doing it. Some who are no longer with us today.

James

 

[jmneill]

A great place to start is a firm understanding that advertised visibility is never anywhere close to what they say it is. Take Blue Grotto for example. It says 200' visibility... err... maybe one day out of entire year when site has not been visited by people for a week and there were no rains. Visibility can and does drop really fast.

Problem starts with:

#1 instructors bringing new student divers to the dive site. It does not matter if its a spring or a lake... outcome is always the same. A lot of silt gets kicked up and next thing you know you can't see anything and you have to move to a new spot. On a new spot they kick stuff up and you keep going in a circle until entire site is covered with free floating muck and silt.

#2 Site operators advertising one thing while site delivers another often worse feel to it.

#3 All other divers trying to swim through the gunk

Perfect example: Blue Grotto. Anyone who goes down the line to the deepest spot is abound to run into that pile of silt on the bottom. One diver's fin hits the silt and next thing you know visibility is 0ft.

By definition open water diver is certified to swim in a no-overhead environment. To this day I have visited King Spring, Blue Grotto, Devil's Den and honestly I would not call neither a open water friendly site. Granted any diver with experience is able to navigate through the sites... but they are not open water friendly. Maybe if dive operators took time to dredge out those sites... like once a month or something?!

Of all the non OW friendly dive sites that have been mentioned in this thread you are really taking the cake with King Spring. I am going to refrain here, but do you have any idea how many open water check out dives have been done here? Lets just say that anyone who has ever been certified in this small Florida manatee vacation destination probably did at least one of their check out dives in this spring. Would you rather that all OW divers remain confined to a shallow indoor heated swimming pool? (because thats pretty much where they will need to be if King Spring is now non OW friendly)

 

[boulderjohn]

I have read many unproductive threads on this and similar topics over the years. I hope I can help make this one more productive than those I have seen before. For the purpose of my contribution, I am going to invent and define a new term: a natural overhead environment. This is any overhead environment that occurs in nature--essentially anything but a wreck or a sunken sewer pipe. For the first part of the post I will talk about conditions commonly found in Cozumel and the Yucatan peninsula.

A hotel in which I used to stay has a wall that offers (or did before the hurricane) excellent snorkeling. There is a natural arch about 12-15 feet deep through which snorkelers like to swim. It is only a few feet wide, but for a brief moment on such a swim, it constitutes a natural overhead environment. Would it be safe for an OW diver to go through it? I think everyone would agree that it is OK.

The island features a number of swim throughs only a relative few feet wider than that arch. Still safe for OW? Most would say so, but some will disagree.

If you do a dive in the Chankanaab Park (which by law must be led by a DM), you will be taken to a cavern. Yes, it meets the definition of a cavern, even though it is really just a small indentation in the wall in which big fish like to hang out. With a coarse sand bottom (no silt outs) and a huge opening allowing bright sunlight, there is no possibility whatsoever of getting lost. Again, almost anyone--but not everyone--would consider it as safe for OW divers.

Then we get into some of the more extensive and complex swim throughs on the island. These are quite controversial. Every day there is diving on the island, DMs are leading OW divers through them. Many people obviously think it is OK, but many don't.

Then there are the cenote cavern dives on the Yucatan mainland. I am one of the many thousands of recreational divers who have been led by a DM through some of them. That experience was one of the reasons I got my cave training years later. These dives have a very good safety record, as TS&M noted, but they are all led by a trained DM. OW divers can't just go into them on their own. These dives are also controversial. Many people obviously think they are just fine; others think they are just plain wrong.

I think everyone will finally agree that it is unsafe for an OW diver to enter a cave itself, with or without a guide.

I hope my point has emerged. There is no point at which we all agree that a natural overhead environment suddenly switches from safe to unsafe. In that gray middle ground, some people will shout "Safe!" while others shout "Unsafe!" back and forth to each other in the manner of the old Miller Lite commercials. ("Tastes great!" "Less filling!") There can be no agreement because there is no clear definition of the dividing line between what is safe and what is unsafe.

Perhaps the most productive way for this thread to proceed is for its participants to try to define what for them constitutes that dividing line. Where do you draw the line between safe and unsafe when a diver enters a natural overhead environment?

 

[jmneill]

I have read many unproductive threads on this and similar topics over the years. I hope I can help make this one more productive than those I have seen before. For the purpose of my contribution, I am going to invent and define a new term: a natural overhead environment. This is any overhead environment that occurs in nature--essentially anything but a wreck or a sunken sewer pipe. For the first part of the post I will talk about conditions commonly found in Cozumel and the Yucatan peninsula.

A hotel in which I used to stay has a wall that offers (or did before the hurricane) excellent snorkeling. There is a natural arch about 12-15 feet deep through which snorkelers like to swim. It is only a few feet wide, but for a brief moment on such a swim, it constitutes a natural overhead environment. Would it be safe for an OW diver to go through it? I think everyone would agree that it is OK.

The island features a number of swim throughs only a relative few feet wider than that arch. Still safe for OW? Most would say so, but some will disagree.

If you do a dive in the Chankanaab Park (which by law must be led by a DM), you will be taken to a cavern. Yes, it meets the definition of a cavern, even though it is really just a small indentation in the wall in which big fish like to hang out. With a coarse sand bottom (no silt outs) and a huge opening allowing bright sunlight, there is no possibility whatsoever of getting lost. Again, almost anyone--but not everyone--would consider it as safe for OW divers.

Then we get into some of the more extensive and complex swim throughs on the island. These are quite controversial. Every day there is diving on the island, DMs are leading OW divers through them. Many people obviously think it is OK, but many don't.

Then there are the cenote cavern dives on the Yucatan mainland. I am one of the many thousands of recreational divers who have been led by a DM through some of them. That experience was one of the reasons I got my cave training years later. These dives have a very good safety record, as TS&M noted, but they are all led by a trained DM. OW divers can't just go into them on their own. These dives are also controversial. Many people obviously think they are just fine; others think they are just plain wrong.

I think everyone will finally agree that it is unsafe for an OW diver to enter a cave itself, with or without a guide.

I hope my point has emerged. There is no point at which we all agree that a natural overhead environment suddenly switches from safe to unsafe. In that gray middle ground, some people will shout "Safe!" while others shout "Unsafe!" back and forth to each other in the manner of the old Miller Lite commercials. ("Tastes great!" "Less filling!") There can be no agreement because there is no clear definition of the dividing line between what is safe and what is unsafe.

Perhaps the most productive way for this thread to proceed is for its participants to try to define what for them constitutes that dividing line. Where do you draw the line between safe and unsafe when a diver enters a natural overhead environment?

While keeping in mind that idiots do dive, and accidents will occur, I think the overall long term safety record of any given site is a good place to start when pondering the thought of if it is yours to draw the line.. (That is, as at least pertaining to all the dive sites I have seen mentioned in this thread so far that have long term history of OW divers in their caverns)

 

[yarik83]

@jmneil

I meant exactly what I meant. Word for word. I am not saying that new divers should be prohibited from diving at springs. All I am saying is that there is a perpetual circle that starts with instructors taking students to those dive sites for open water diving.

Last time I was at King Spring Crystal River was in March-April of this year. We went there first thing in the morning with a group of 50 UF college students sitting in the mouth of entrance to the spring listening to instructor about their dive plan. As we squeezed between those folks to enter dive site... visibility was 0. Yep you heard me... 0 feet. as in same kind of visibility national geographic shows when they broadcast tv shows of sewer divers. Visibility was so bad that when I stretched out my 2 arms before descending... I could not see my camera in front of me. We were a group of 7 divers with about 10 other divers already under water. I do not know what happened but visibility was un-diveble. We had to do the obvious... deflate bcds and go to the bottom by feel. At the bottom of the open portion we looked up and barely saw daylight. As we swam into the cave portion visibility was clear. Thankfully nobody made it there yet. So we hung around there for 15 minutes checking out air pockets and other things...after which we decided to check on our dive buddies. We swam to cave opening and looked up and this time could not see any light at all. By that time all 50 diver students were in water. We just sat there and waited. Meanwhile another diver went into the cave. 2 minutes later he high tails it out of there. We turned around and decided to do another loop but along and behold visibility was 0ft. That diver kicked up everything. We sat there for probably 20 minutes waiting for stuff to settle. All and all it was a very crappy dive.
Having given up on the dive we went to check out the manatees. On the way back we stopped by King Spring again and not a single soul was there but visibility was 3 ft at best.

Other problem lies with site operators.
I do not know how much it costs to dredge a site the size of Blue Grotto... but let's not forget that most stuff that ends up as silt was brought there by rains or by divers on the way to the dive site.
Dredging these sites may eliminate most problems that make cavern dives extra hazardous for open water divers. That is not to say that in a silt-less environment these sites would be any less safer but at least visibility would not be of issue.

And finally the other divers.

Drive across the state... pay high admission fee and dive is almost untolerable.

I have been to Devil's Den 4-5 times and every single time visibility was awful.
I have been to Blue Grotto 2-3 times and every single time visibility was awful.

Lake Denton.... visibility is awful most of the time and tolerable if you swim out a few hundred feet.

My advice is that no diver should be allowed in caverns unless they have 20 open water dives logged. And no pool sessions should not count.

So... where should divers do their dives? If Devil's Den drained their man made lake and fixed their so called state of the art natural filtration system that leaves lake with 0ft vis... maybe then....

 

[jmneill]

@jmneil

I meant exactly what I meant. Word for word. I am not saying that new divers should be prohibited from diving at springs. All I am saying is that there is a perpetual circle that starts with instructors taking students to those dive sites for open water diving.

Last time I was at King Spring Crystal River was in March-April of this year. We went there first thing in the morning with a group of 50 UF college students sitting in the mouth of entrance to the spring listening to instructor about their dive plan. As we squeezed between those folks to enter dive site... visibility was 0. Yep you heard me... 0 feet. as in same kind of visibility national geographic shows when they broadcast tv shows of sewer divers. Visibility was so bad that when I stretched out my 2 arms before descending... I could not see my camera in front of me. We were a group of 7 divers with about 10 other divers already under water. I do not know what happened but visibility was un-diveble. We had to do the obvious... deflate bcds and go to the bottom by feel. At the bottom of the open portion we looked up and barely saw daylight. As we swam into the cave portion visibility was clear. Thankfully nobody made it there yet. So we hung around there for 15 minutes checking out air pockets and other things...after which we decided to check on our dive buddies. We swam to cave opening and looked up and this time could not see any light at all. By that time all 50 diver students were in water. We just sat there and waited. Meanwhile another diver went into the cave. 2 minutes later he high tails it out of there. We turned around and decided to do another loop but along and behold visibility was 0ft. That diver kicked up everything. We sat there for probably 20 minutes waiting for stuff to settle. All and all it was a very crappy dive.
Having given up on the dive we went to check out the manatees. On the way back we stopped by King Spring again and not a single soul was there but visibility was 3 ft at best.

Other problem lies with site operators.
I do not know how much it costs to dredge a site the size of Blue Grotto... but let's not forget that most stuff that ends up as silt was brought there by rains or by divers on the way to the dive site.
Dredging these sites may eliminate most problems that make cavern dives extra hazardous for open water divers. That is not to say that in a silt-less environment these sites would be any less safer but at least visibility would not be of issue.

And finally the other divers.

Drive across the state... pay high admission fee and dive is almost untolerable.

I have been to Devil's Den 4-5 times and every single time visibility was awful.
I have been to Blue Grotto 2-3 times and every single time visibility was awful.

Lake Denton.... visibility is awful most of the time and tolerable if you swim out a few hundred feet.

My advice is that no diver should be allowed in caverns unless they have 20 open water dives logged. And no pool sessions should not count.

So... where should divers do their dives? If Devil's Den drained their man made lake and fixed their so called state of the art natural filtration system that leaves lake with 0ft vis... maybe then....

As for King Spring, if your not the first group down then go enjoy Three Sisters, because King will be shot for the day. Thats the way is there. I've never had a problem at the Devils Den and the Blue Grotto is hit or miss. The quality of the vis at the Grotto depends on the quality of the divers that went in before you.
As for the dredge, I'm not in that line of business but I def don't expect to see any dredging going on at any of these sites.

 

[DukeAMO]

I have been to Devil's Den 4-5 times and every single time visibility was awful.
I have been to Blue Grotto 2-3 times and every single time visibility was awful.

Hm. That's completely different from when we did our OW training dives there in March. The visibility we had must have been closer to 15-20 feet at both sites. There were very few divers at Devil's Den, because it was a Friday. Also, it was very easy for us to stay in the non-overhead areas of Devil's Den. I mean, the entire cavern is underground, so it's all overhead, but we did our training dives in the areas where we could go straight up to the air. If we didn't pay attention we would wander maybe 2-3 feet under the overhang, and the instructor would wave us back out. We had 2 buddy pairs plus the instructor. There was nothing unsafe about what we were doing.

We dove Blue Grotto on a Saturday, and there were a lot of new divers in there. There were probably 40 divers there, half of them doing OW training dives. The OW trainees, including us, were in the non-overhead area. Even with all of those new divers, visibility still had to be 15 feet in most areas. But we weren't even allowed to go as far in as the air bell. Our instructor took the responsibility to keep us out of there.

I guess my point is that it's easy enough to do OW training dives at those sites, if you just require your students to stay out of the overhead areas. Yes, that severely restricts the amount of area you can cover, but for new divers the experience of diving outside of a pool is enough entertainment in and of itself. You can work on your skills, practice your buoyancy control, and watch the fish.

Now, I did see some newly certified OW divers there on Saturday to actually dive the deep cavern part of Blue Grotto, and I was very concerned for those ladies. Foolhardy. You couldn't even possibly know if you could make it down to 100 feet and back up the line on a single tank of air if you didn't know your SAC rate. I personally do think you should be required to have cavern training to go, say, past the air bell.

For those who have not been to Devil's Den, here's a picture: Google Image Result for http://giantstridedives.com/locations/images/uploads/20.jpg

For those who have not been to Blue Grotto, here's a map: Google Image Result for http://bluegrottosprings.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/bluegrottomap.jpg
And is Blue Grotto really for sale?

 

[windapp]

Do they teach how to run a line in the cavern course?

 

[boulderjohn]

Do they teach how to run a line in the cavern course?

They do.

 

[TSandM]

Yes, one of the major skills in cavern is line running.