"Open Water Diver Safe Cavern Dives" ???

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Thread reopened after cleanup....
Folks, this important topic was getting derailed and was devolving to the level of personal attacks. Stay on topic and remember that you are in the Basic Scuba forum which specifically prohibits the sort of posting behavior that was taking place before the thread was closed for cleanup. Further violations will result in individual sanctions that may involve a loss of posting privileges.
 
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A great place to start is a firm understanding that advertised visibility is never anywhere close to what they say it is. Take Blue Grotto for example. It says 200' visibility... err... maybe one day out of entire year when site has not been visited by people for a week and there were no rains. Visibility can and does drop really fast.

Problem starts with:

#1 instructors bringing new student divers to the dive site. It does not matter if its a spring or a lake... outcome is always the same. A lot of silt gets kicked up and next thing you know you can't see anything and you have to move to a new spot. On a new spot they kick stuff up and you keep going in a circle until entire site is covered with free floating muck and silt.

#2 Site operators advertising one thing while site delivers another often worse feel to it.

#3 All other divers trying to swim through the gunk

Perfect example: Blue Grotto. Anyone who goes down the line to the deepest spot is abound to run into that pile of silt on the bottom. One diver's fin hits the silt and next thing you know visibility is 0ft.

By definition open water diver is certified to swim in a no-overhead environment. To this day I have visited King Spring, Blue Grotto, Devil's Den and honestly I would not call neither a open water friendly site. Granted any diver with experience is able to navigate through the sites... but they are not open water friendly. Maybe if dive operators took time to dredge out those sites... like once a month or something?!
 
This thread began with the presentation of an opinion. Its placement in the Basic Scuba forum suggests it was intended as a warning. After a while some disagreement arose from someone suggesting that the warning was neither needed nor appreciated. OK, that could be the basis for a very interesting and informative thread that would be quite useful in the Basic Scuba section.

Unfortunately, the arguments were well salted with personal insults that are simply not allowed here. These insults and personal attacks, which did nothing to further the argument, were so interlaced within the more logical portions of the discussion that everything was lost through moderation. How sad!

It would be nice if people could resume the discussion and stick to the use of solid supporting detail, omitting all the superfluous personal attacks.
 
Can you explain to me why my post was completely removed? I never insulted anyone. What rules did I break? I am not asking to be a pain in the butt, I am asking because I would really like to know.

I thought my explanation of helmets in vehicles and training requirements fit very well with the discussion.

---------- Post added ----------

Never mind. I see you removed all references to that. I guess I have to reread this thread again! :)
 
Never mind. I see you removed all references to that. I guess I have to reread this thread again!
icosm14.gif
Yeah, James. Your post was lost due to collateral damage as the non sequiturs were removed in the mop up. Sorry about that. There was no way to save it. Happy reading! (I hope it all hangs together with no non-sequiturs.)
 
It would be nice if people could resume the discussion and stick to the use of solid supporting detail, omitting all the superfluous personal attacks.

Where is the fun in that?

I recall two divers who said they did not need training to cavern/cave dive and I had the task of pulling their dead bodies out of the cave while their wives and children watched, wailing and squalling. Makes me wonder how the children are getting along now without their daddys.

It makes me shake my head and look for my body recovery gear when I hear people dissing the need for training. It also pisses me off that people can be so arrogant, stupid and selfish.




Jim Wyatt
www.cavediveflorida.com
www.cavecountrydiving.com
352-363-0013
 
Jim thats the part very few of us think about. As for Blue Grotto, I have seen it turn to trash with poor trim, kicking up the silt and bad buancy. However cavedivers dont bother with it and the few cavern trained divers would hardly be enough to keep it open so Im sure they would go belly up without OW divers revenue. Probably the others listed as well with the exception of Ginnie. So is it all about the money putting safety aside? probably so. I only hope no tradgetys occur to unsuspecting divers who brave the overhead daylight zone unprepared.
 
There's a long, long list of open water divers who are no longer with us because they didn't think they needed training to dive in caves. That is about as simple as I can say it and I urge you to listen to Mr. Wyatt's advice.
 
I took the time to PM one of the folks catching heat rounds in this thread. Folks on both sides of this argument get very defensive in their positions. He is going to be taking Cavern training, and I even plan on trying to get in a couple of cavern dives with him after his training.
 
OK,... here is my take on this topic based on my own experience. I almost became a cave diving fatality statistic. My buddy talked me into going into Vortex up to the grate. Vortex has also been known to be an "Open Water Diver safe cave(rn)" (notice I use the quotation marks?.... there is no such thing for the untrained). Yes, I certainly knew better,... but not so much why. Curiosity got the better of me, not that it is any kind of excuse, there is none. We went into the cave at dusk. The grate is about 400 ft back & at about 110 ft depth. When we came out, it was dark,... So even if it would have been cavern to the grate,... it was dark, so there was no cavern anyway. We were in the basin (Open Water), but did not know it. The black sky & lack of any kind of light above, looked like the ceiling of the cave. The sheer walls of the basin looked like the walls of the cave. Lost, we went back & forth into & out of the cave trying to figure out where we took a wrong turn. I was running critically low on air. After several more minutes, my buddy figured it out & took off while my back was turned, wiping vis out for a few minutes, he was perched on a ledge above trying to signal me with his light (could not see it) & he was NOT coming back down for me. He was too freaked out. After several more minutes trying to figure out where he went, I finally had the presence of mind to cover my light & could then see him signalling me. I surfaced with waaaaay less than 400psi. Too close for comfort. Many of the basic rules were broken (3/5). The biggest- No training. If so I would have approached this entirely differently. No continuous guideline to open water, if so we would have know that we were in the basin. No gas planning. If so I would not have almost run out of air. You can have 100,000 dives, be the world's best instructor, or even a diving god,.... none of that is enough to replace proper overhead environment training. Sorry. The overhead environment is inherently more risky than open water diving, but with training & applying the training, those risks can be minimized. Thank goodness, with the training I have received, I now know what true danger I put myself, my buddy & anyone who may have had to recover me. I also now realize the agony my decision could have had on my family & friends. My instructor was VERY tough on me, because of this stupid decision I made. he wanted to make absolutely sure I understood the ramifications of those decisions. I realize that no matter what I or any of the others say to support this view, there are those who will not listen because they "think" they know the risks. Do you really? There is absolutely no excuse not to get training to do the dives you want to do. It is affordable & it is readily available. If you don't getthe training for yourself, at least get it for those you love & those who may be affected by your decisions.
 

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