NACD Instructor standards violation

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While he may have sent a list to Rick and Rob happened to be on it, that doesn't mean that it was the reason the investigation was started or that the investigation hadn't already been in motion.

I never claimed that he was the cause for the suspension, what I said was that he is an agitator.
Considering that he also admitted not having witnessed any of the standards violations himself but only received and compiled reports (and passed these to Rick and Jim), there is reason to believe the same people (or person) that filed the complaints with the NACD (and the CDS prior to that I believe) may be among the sources of his list.
 
Maybe you should check your FB messages to me, especially from March 30 when you said you had been in touch with Rick Murcar about "all this", which would be the instructor violations.
You also sent me your list of NACD instructors with alleged violations, Rob was number one on that list.
Rob was suspended pretty much exactly two weeks after that.

IF (note the IF) the NACD did an investigation based on this list and Rob was found to have violated standards and got suspended, blaming the person that supplied the list is like blaming a girl who got raped for wearing a skirt or looking nice.
 
IF (note the IF) the NACD did an investigation based on this list and Rob was found to have violated standards and got suspended, blaming the person that supplied the list is like blaming a girl who got raped for wearing a skirt or looking nice.

If I accused someone of rape, because "I heard and someone reported it to me" and there is an investigation and an arrest. What would you call that? Who would you blame?
 
This thread has become vile.

And, as a moderator is among the more enthusiastic mud-slingers, I don't expect there's any hope of it returning to anything useful.

Closing this thread would do the community a service.
 
"Has become"?

LOL, that particular ship sailed a while ago! [emoji6]

This thread has become vile.

And, as a moderator is among the more enthusiastic mud-slingers, I don't expect there's any hope of it returning to anything useful.

Closing this thread would do the community a service.
 
Oliver: The correct sequence of events is that AFTER Rick posted the "Cave Diving Etiquette" thread, I contacted him saying that I was excited about his proposition but was unimpressed by the tone of absolute superiority. I told him that I personally knew of a few NACD instructors that were low quality, and had personally seen some very poor diving during training. He made statements that made it sound like he felt the NACD was superior and NACD instructors were infallible. I told him that getting his instructor corp to a superior level was certainly a great goal, but that he should clean house before casting stones at others. He responded that he couldn't imagine his instructors not holding to excellent standards, and I gave him a list of names I had personally seen as well as a list of names that I was contacted regarding. My message was clear about who I had seen and who I had gotten reports of. Regardless, upping NACD standards should be more his concern than disparaging comments towards other agencies (like him and Jim Wyatt talking about how other agencies just require a check to become instructors, which is simply untrue). My comments about Rob were that there was a lot of animosity towards the NACD because of the way he was brought in, but I was probably biased due to him blowing out caves on purpose and negatively impacting my diving as well as me being sick of seeing Rob and his group posting slanderous crap about Edd. I also made it clear I had no feelings for or against the NACD and had no dog in that fight. That is what I said. I was unaware of LOG, the details of Rob being "selected" to Conservation Director, etc. If that got an investigation started, I'd be surprised.

You've done nothing but twist facts to your benefit, Oliver. Don't try to use facts to your advantage....you're bad at it. I hope that anybody that looks at this objectively sees it for what it is and that you haven't twisted the truth beyond recognition.
 
Oliver, that is a stupid analogy because it doesn't follow course of events.
For this, report filed, investigation started, based on findings of initial investigation suspension was voted on. This would not have happened if the investigation didn't reveal enough evidence, but enough was provided to show the BoD that the instructor was endangering students or the agency, so it was voted on to suspend, after suspension, an in depth investigation is conducted to decide whether to reinstate or expel.
If this followed your analogy it would have been, report, suspend *no voting on suspend, just suspend*, then start the investigation process. Doesn't work like that.

Also, Rob was just as much of an agitator, just in a different sense. He was taking a stagnant organization and trying to bring it into the modern era, it ruffled a lot of feathers. It needed to happen, and I commend him on it because he had the balls to do it when those before him didn't. Victor had the balls to talk to people who were just moaning about the long list of complaints they had with current cave instruction, decided to compile them, and take it to the agencies and say "look, this is what is going on. I don't know if you're turning a blind eye to it because you don't want to deal with it, or literally just don't know, but this is the impressions of many well respected cave divers and you need to do something about it". Did he agitate, heck yeah he did, but it had to be done, because otherwise the moaning would continue and nothing would be done about it. He didn't file any complaints, a process that has to be done for an investigation to occur, you are hurt because one of your buddies was TD, was on the list, happened to be at the top, and timing sucks so it all came crashing down at once. Fine, you have every right to be defensive because he's your good friend and you don't believe that what has happened is fair. You don't agree with the amount of agitation that Victor has done since all of this happened, fine, take it up with him in person.

That doesn't mean that he has any say in what happened to Rob, he can't, he does not meet the criteria to file a formal complaint against the vast majority of people on that list because he didn't observe it personally, but that doesn't mean the agencies shouldn't be made aware of what people are saying. All that it says is that Rick had the balls to go up against the Good Ol' Boy network in the NACD that caused many good people to have their lifetime memberships revoked, and turned a blind eye to what was going on, and he apparently had enough ammunition to start with what he deemed to be the top of his priority list. Also remember that the vote to suspend was 3/1, which means the majority agreed with the findings from the initial investigation so none of this can be put on any single person. 75% of the vote said that we believe there is enough evidence that Rob was violating standards to the point that he was endangering students or the agency, and we need to suspend him to prevent any future damage. To be fair to him, we will conduct a full investigation to ensure that all of this was correct, and if we find that it wasn't, we will reinstate, if it confirms the initial investigation, they expel.

Very simple, this was not a knee-jerk reaction, they did their due diligence to get to the point that they voted to remove one of their own temporarily, and are now trying to make sure they made the right decision.
 
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Looks like I struck a nerve :)

As to the new rumors by the Greenville twins, I'm not going to participate.
 
If I accused someone of rape, because "I heard and someone reported it to me" and there is an investigation and an arrest. What would you call that? Who would you blame?
What matters is whether the arrested person really did the rape or not, it's irrelevant how the authorities found out about it.

And I'm just responding to your reasoning here, Oliver, as I've said it before, I have no sides in this, and just responding because I've read several times about the someone has a personal vendetta, ax to grind and all the bs animosity between each other, and people keep claiming that complaints should not be investigated since they come from people who have an interest in damaging the accused.
We all also know that people are unlikely to report their own instructors or friends, and since everyone pretty much knows everyone in cc, it's a small community, besides that, there's also the known fact that people don't want to get involved and have their name associated with such complaints, so, who is ever going to point out an instructor is doing something he/she isn't supposed to be doing?
An enemy makes the "perfect" person to make an official complaint, if the enemy spots you breaking standards, he/she will not hold back in getting you in trouble.

Now, there's a big difference in taking action against the accused based only on accusation and taking action based on the results of an investigation, and at the end of said investigation, if the complaints hold true, do we care how it got there?
 
If I accused someone of rape, because "I heard and someone reported it to me" and there is an investigation and an arrest. What would you call that? Who would you blame?

I would blame the rapist, not the person who reported it. Who else is there to blame?
 
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