NACD Instructor standards violation

[tbone1004]

Paul is a good friend of mine, and was made aware of the what was being said about him long before that dinner picture was taken, and LONG before anything was sent to the agencies.

Now, I have not actually seen the list, I did not compile it and actually stayed mostly out of those conversations. For the reasons you state, that list can't be made public because with no proof positive evidence on most of it, it is all hearsay. Publishing it would be irresponsible. The list was compiled because of the statements made by the TD's of two rather important agencies and the statements made were very elitist. Unfortunately they were unaware of the actual state of their training corps. So, when everything was sent to the it was "look, this is what is being said about these instructors *where applicable personal observations were made*, and you guys need to really look inwards to make sure you can make these claims". That is all it was, there was never any intention of getting those accused of standards violations because the vast majority weren't accused of standards violations, much was just "they're getting lazy and it shows" or something similar to that. You will never see that list unless you are on the board of those agencies and nor should you.

I don't want to see the list, I have no reason to because it doesn't effect me, and since I didn't compile it, it isn't my business. All that matters is that the agencies are made aware of what others are saying about people their instructors so they can do something about it. We all know at least 3/4 instructors that are on the list and it may be different instructors, it doesn't take much effort to bring it out. What is important is that the NACD and CDS take that list and do something about it so they can actually make the claim that we are the elite cave training agencies, that is all that matters. The names on the list don't matter, you could just put a number next to each name and it would have the same point. You aren't as good as you claim you are, either stop making the claim, or get better so you can make that claim.

 

[bamafan]

Victor why don't you publish this list of crappy instructors since you and Tbone have annointed yourselves the "Cave Police". I am sure the cave diving community would be so much better off for it. I heard that word got around to some of the instructors on the list and that when they asked or others asked you could not tell them who their crappy students were because you finally admitted to not actually seeing it but were in fact spreading rumors. Is this true? Where are you diving that you see this many violations in such a short period of time. I cave dive nearly every weekend and rarely see these violations. Do I see crappy divers at the tourist cave diving sites? Yes I do but as I have come to learn we are not the cave police. I have seen some that I genuinely feared for their safety if they went to the wrong cave. I brought it up to the guy who rented them a boat and his exact words were if they have a card there is nothing I can do. If the people who own shops, are instructors for several agencies and even sit on the BOD of a training agency say there is nothing they can do how do you think making a list and stabbing people in the back is going to fix anything. You actually might want to go watch these people teach or go diving with them before you start slamming them. I have found out that there is a massive amount of BS stated in cave diving and that if you actually go and meet the person and dive with them you come away with a different opinion. This I have learned from my own mistakes.

So if you are so concerned about the level of training in the cave diving community why don't you and your buddy Tbone quit making list based on rumors and falsehoods and get involved with one of the training agencies.

I really don't think you care enough to invest your personal time and money. I think you had rather just sit back and throw mud at people you have often never met but for some reason are out to get.

 

[tbone1004]

I didn't make the list bud, it wasn't my idea. I have spoken personally with the instructors that I know and care about. I don't understand why letting the agencies know that there are concerns about their instructors is being the cave police. There was no mud thrown, ask Rick or Jim how it was brought to their attention. There was no accusations made unless he had witnessed it directly. The comments were, "look, this was told to me, and there was enough of it going around that I felt that you should be made aware if you weren't". There was no witch hunting, there was nothing personal about it. Simply stating what he had heard and was hoping that the agencies would decide that they had to change in order to fix what happened. Don't misconstrue the intention of that list as being attacking those instructors personally, it was to kindly inform the agencies that they weren't the infallible high and mighty, end all be all, that they were portraying themselves to be.

I am involved with a training agency, for the record, just not the NACD, but I do maintain membership with the CDS, NAUI, and NFSA.

This is you being defensive and starting a rumor on why that list was compiled. Fine, I get it, you're hurt because your buddy is in the hot seat, fine, but don't think that we are out to "get anyone", because this whole thing started with the agencies, and is staying with the agencies. It is up to them to deal with the instructors, not any of us, but they had to be made aware that they were becoming complacent as an agency and needed a kick in the butt to bring themselves back.

 

[victorzamora]

Eric, according to you my opinions shouldn't matter as I don't have enough experience to know what I don't know. You and Oliver have made that painfully clear.

As for publishing "the list".....you're making it sound much more malicious than it is. I simply wanted to inform Rick and Jim that they're not infallible. In fact, I made it clear I wasn't reporting anybody. I also made it clear that some of it was hearsay. I thought I've made it clear on here that the intent was to fix the perception of their agencies, not "oust" bad instructors. You obviously don't get that. However, nobody was surprised by many people on the list. Heck, Jim Wyatt even admitted he knew most of the instructors on the list were pretty low quality

---------- Post added June 6th, 2015 at 01:22 PM ----------

It's also ridiculous that this thread just bounces from you and Oliver and Pete spreading rumors and attacking people to deflect from the main mission of this thread: to tell the cave community that your buddy has been suspended pending further investigation

 

[Bennno]

Bent, my intention wasn't to submit a formal report. My intention was to simply ask Rick to be more realistic with his views of his agency. That was all.

If you have seen actual violations then you really should report them.

 

[victorzamora]

If you have seen actual violations then you really should report them.

I reported the serious one. It was ignored. It was not any instructor mentioned on this forum.

 

[bamafan]

For the record Tbone and Victor I have said I don't give a crap about Rob being suspended. I personally think he is better off for it. I even said I can't comment on the LOG incident as I have never been there. But unlike you two I will not post on every thread. You two even comment on breather threads and DIR threads that you don't have a clue about. I just get tired of the crap y'all spread as I am sure others are tired of it as well. I am done with this and I will be glad to discuss this in person anytime but I am sure people are tired of me ranting about your sanctimonious actions and I am just going to make a bigger ass out of myself by trying to argue with you two. I think that you will find that you can achieve more by actually getting involved and going diving than posting nonstop on here and CDF.

 

[victorzamora]

For the record Tbone and Victor I have said I don't give a crap about Rob being suspended. I personally think he is better off for it. I even said I can't comment on the LOG incident as I have never been there. But unlike you two I will not post on every thread. You two even comment on breather threads and DIR threads that you don't have a clue about. I just get tired of the crap y'all spread as I am sure others are tired of it as well. I am done with this and I will be glad to discuss this in person anytime but I am sure people are tired of me ranting about your sanctimonious actions and I am just going to make a bigger ass out of myself by trying to argue with you two. I think that you will find that you can achieve more by actually getting involved and going diving than posting nonstop on here and CDF.

Yup, cool. Keep it off topic and keep the attacks personal. Good job.

 

[nakatomi]

I saw many violations.

That's confusing. You told me that you didn't witness the violations that got the instructors on your list and had them all reported to you. I believe this was posted by you or tbone in this thread too?
So which is it? What exactly are the many violations you saw?

I reported the serious one. It was ignored. It was not any instructor mentioned on this forum.

That violation, I believe, you told me about. Were you actually on that dive and did you witness it? From what you told me, it was your friend who did the dive and told you about it?

 

[victorzamora]

That's confusing. You told me that you didn't witness the violations that got the instructors on your list and had them all reported to you. I believe this was posted by you or tbone in this thread too?
So which is it? What exactly are the many violations you saw?

That violation, I believe, you told me about. Were you actually on that dive and did you witness it? From what you told me, it was your friend who did the dive and told you about it?

Oliver, as I've told you repeatedly: I have personally witnessed repeated violations and have personally witnessed poor instruction. I also have been told of a great number of violations and poor instructors. Oliver, you read what benefits you most. I never said I didn't witness any violations. In fact, having witnessed so many is what got people contacting me about examples that they witnessed.