With all the questions here this is a specific one.Does any one here have experiance diving Mares regs below 130 ft? I am putting together a kit for spring deep deco training and can buy these at a good price.If answers come are the new mini(Proton) or old faithful(Abyss) preffered? If any uses Mares any info would be helpful.Thanks.
Mares regs for deep?
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I have a proton 32 that I have been using regularly. great breating at depth and love it. I use it usually <130 but had no problems at 170. I think Mares rate their regs to 150 for legal reasons. HOWEVER, I will use it in only warm water as its prone to freeflow in cold (for cold water i use my apeks.) There is a thermal kit you can buy. IMO, do a little more research, as you are now, and you will find regulators suited for the kind of diving you plan.
chrpai
Contributor
I've taken Mares MR12 Axis regularly down to 100ffw in as low as 36F water with no problems free flowing or breathing.
As much as I like that reg, and as much as I discount the "performance / life support " arguments when people don't have any real metrics to measure performance and reliability, I would have to say I don't think the type of diving you want to do is approriate to the Mares regulators.
As much as I like that reg, and as much as I discount the "performance / life support " arguments when people don't have any real metrics to measure performance and reliability, I would have to say I don't think the type of diving you want to do is approriate to the Mares regulators.
Greg Barlow
Contributor
I challenge anyone to give me some scientific reasoning to show that Mares regs are not suited to "extreme" diving. First, I have hundreds of such dives using Mares MR12 regs. They are very well built and offer the benefits of being a robust design that delivers very high gas flow. The first stage utilizes very few O-rings and due to the design is not affected as much by adiabatic heating as many other models on the market. The first stage also used the dynamic flow control feature which boosts the pressure to the preferential port. This has been validated by independent testing on an ANSTI simulator.
The second stages offer simplicity that hinges on the effectiveness of the VAD design. This vortex-assisted-design creates a venturi action that assists in keeping the diaphragm depressed after the air flow has begun. This allows Mares regs to not be dependent upon adjustable venturi levers and inhalation effort controls.
I have first hand experience with the testing of Mares regs on an ANSTI breathing simulator. I was the Science Editor for Rodale's Scuba Diving Magazine for two years, and was blessed to work with the late Jon Hardy of ScubaLab. All of Mares's regs meet the EN250 standards by a wide margin. Even the R2 piston design does. The diaphragm designs, 12, 16, & 22, all MEET or EXCEED the US Navy class "A" standards also. In fact, my favorite reg, the MR12 Akros had a simulator score of 1.1 joules/liter, while the Navy standard is 1.4 j/l.
As far as the Abyss goes, I don't use them due to the fact that I can't field strip it under water. It is a great design for cold water, as the metal second stage does withstand the chilling effects of such conditions. Plus, it only has 3 O-rings in the whole second stage. Talk about durability and simplicity!
Jon Hardy did many "blind" tests with regs. His extensive data shows that divers cannot differentiate regs until the breathing effort exceeds 0.4 j/l. This means that you can't credibly tell the difference between a reg that has a 0.9 and a 1.2.
I have serviced many different brands of regs, and have had many different models stripped down to their individual components. THERE ARE NOT POOR PERFORMING REGS produced by the major manufacturers on the market.
I can honestly say that many divers choose a particular brand or model only by what other divers tell them. Just because a "tech guru" uses a certain brand doesn't mean that it is substantially better than others.
Now, I will make a few general remarks on regs. High pressure is a killer on HP valves. The life expectancy of the polymer compound takes a real beating from pressures in excess of 3,000psi. Mares valves do not hold up as long as I like when the pressures of 3,400 and higher are consistently used. When I say consistently, I should clarify that I've personally seen them fail and begin leaking enough to causes second stages to begin "burping" from the excess intermediate pressure. Not catastrophically leaking, but a slow bubbling I might add. But.....This is a very common problem for almost all models and lines. Many tout the virtues of ScubaPro regs, but they, too, have this very same problem. In fact there are some individuals that have a steady job of producing more robust seats custom made for technical divers. It is true that Apeks first stage seats hold up to such high pressures for generally a long time. Apeks uses a polymer compound that seems almost impervious to such tasks. Mares has begun producing seats that have a compound that "looks" very much like the Apeks material. Before anyone jumps on the "copy" bandwagon, I will add that the Mares dynamic flow control feature is now a common one of other lines. They usually call it an overbalanced first stage. Hey, if something works then why not use it?
As far as the comment about free flowing...I adjust all of the Mares regs that I service to have a cracking effort of 1.25" rather than the typical setting of 1.0". After rebuilding at least 50 to this standard, I've only been made aware of one that free flowed. When this is a problem, I make an adjustment that takes all but two minutes of time.
I honestly tire of the debates over regs. Many of these come from the same mindset that auto manufacturer fans have. Let's be quite frank, can someone specifically point out problems with Mares regs? My breath great at 130' on EAN or air, and easier flowing helium based mixes should be used beyond that point anyway.
One more big plus for Mares and ScubaPro is that you can go to virtually anywhere in the world and find a dealer and more importantly, parts.
I don't want to be argumentative, but let's hear some real facts to prove my points wrong. Subjective opinions are merely based upon perceptions. Real testing by a simulator is the ONLY viable result when it comes to breathing effort.
After 28 years of using regs, I am still amazed that the modern designs are still so similar to those of yesterday. Evolved, yes, revolutionary, no.
Greg Barlow
The second stages offer simplicity that hinges on the effectiveness of the VAD design. This vortex-assisted-design creates a venturi action that assists in keeping the diaphragm depressed after the air flow has begun. This allows Mares regs to not be dependent upon adjustable venturi levers and inhalation effort controls.
I have first hand experience with the testing of Mares regs on an ANSTI breathing simulator. I was the Science Editor for Rodale's Scuba Diving Magazine for two years, and was blessed to work with the late Jon Hardy of ScubaLab. All of Mares's regs meet the EN250 standards by a wide margin. Even the R2 piston design does. The diaphragm designs, 12, 16, & 22, all MEET or EXCEED the US Navy class "A" standards also. In fact, my favorite reg, the MR12 Akros had a simulator score of 1.1 joules/liter, while the Navy standard is 1.4 j/l.
As far as the Abyss goes, I don't use them due to the fact that I can't field strip it under water. It is a great design for cold water, as the metal second stage does withstand the chilling effects of such conditions. Plus, it only has 3 O-rings in the whole second stage. Talk about durability and simplicity!
Jon Hardy did many "blind" tests with regs. His extensive data shows that divers cannot differentiate regs until the breathing effort exceeds 0.4 j/l. This means that you can't credibly tell the difference between a reg that has a 0.9 and a 1.2.
I have serviced many different brands of regs, and have had many different models stripped down to their individual components. THERE ARE NOT POOR PERFORMING REGS produced by the major manufacturers on the market.
I can honestly say that many divers choose a particular brand or model only by what other divers tell them. Just because a "tech guru" uses a certain brand doesn't mean that it is substantially better than others.
Now, I will make a few general remarks on regs. High pressure is a killer on HP valves. The life expectancy of the polymer compound takes a real beating from pressures in excess of 3,000psi. Mares valves do not hold up as long as I like when the pressures of 3,400 and higher are consistently used. When I say consistently, I should clarify that I've personally seen them fail and begin leaking enough to causes second stages to begin "burping" from the excess intermediate pressure. Not catastrophically leaking, but a slow bubbling I might add. But.....This is a very common problem for almost all models and lines. Many tout the virtues of ScubaPro regs, but they, too, have this very same problem. In fact there are some individuals that have a steady job of producing more robust seats custom made for technical divers. It is true that Apeks first stage seats hold up to such high pressures for generally a long time. Apeks uses a polymer compound that seems almost impervious to such tasks. Mares has begun producing seats that have a compound that "looks" very much like the Apeks material. Before anyone jumps on the "copy" bandwagon, I will add that the Mares dynamic flow control feature is now a common one of other lines. They usually call it an overbalanced first stage. Hey, if something works then why not use it?
As far as the comment about free flowing...I adjust all of the Mares regs that I service to have a cracking effort of 1.25" rather than the typical setting of 1.0". After rebuilding at least 50 to this standard, I've only been made aware of one that free flowed. When this is a problem, I make an adjustment that takes all but two minutes of time.
I honestly tire of the debates over regs. Many of these come from the same mindset that auto manufacturer fans have. Let's be quite frank, can someone specifically point out problems with Mares regs? My breath great at 130' on EAN or air, and easier flowing helium based mixes should be used beyond that point anyway.
One more big plus for Mares and ScubaPro is that you can go to virtually anywhere in the world and find a dealer and more importantly, parts.
I don't want to be argumentative, but let's hear some real facts to prove my points wrong. Subjective opinions are merely based upon perceptions. Real testing by a simulator is the ONLY viable result when it comes to breathing effort.
After 28 years of using regs, I am still amazed that the modern designs are still so similar to those of yesterday. Evolved, yes, revolutionary, no.
Greg Barlow
scubafanatic
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I agree with you, Greg. I dive Mares Voltrex and Ruby regs, as well as Poseidon Odins. ( I have several of each model). I'm fairly new to diving (certified a bit over 2 yrs ago) but have been very pleased with my Mares regs. Dove my MR16 Voltrex reg in Cozumel a month ago down to 140 ft deep and it did extremely well...a perfect performer! ...and I'm convinced the Mares Ruby is the 'smoothest' breathing regulator out there.
Also love my Odins, and have been very pleased with them as well......I dove them, among other places, during a week of cave diving in Sept in Akumal, Mexico...my life was in 'their' hands!
I haven't yet done extremely deep or extremely cold diving, but I'm confident my Mares regs would do just fine in those conditions, as my Voltrex breathed just as easily @ 140 ft. deep as at the surface.
Karl
Also love my Odins, and have been very pleased with them as well......I dove them, among other places, during a week of cave diving in Sept in Akumal, Mexico...my life was in 'their' hands!
I haven't yet done extremely deep or extremely cold diving, but I'm confident my Mares regs would do just fine in those conditions, as my Voltrex breathed just as easily @ 140 ft. deep as at the surface.
Karl
I have used Mares V16/XTR combo, and I would never dive them to 200ft. They just don't deliver as well as other regs. And that's not debatable, because it's simply true.
I'm not saying you CAN'T use them. I'm saying there are far more better options, and sooner or later, you're going to move to one of those better options if you dive long enough.
My wife also ownthe same reg set, and I have tweeked it to the "top end" to allow her to get some decent performance out of it. She will occassionally grab mine (Scubapro) from my mouth to see the difference........she's always suprised at the difference.
I call her set "The Brick" as in, it breathes like one
I'm not saying you CAN'T use them. I'm saying there are far more better options, and sooner or later, you're going to move to one of those better options if you dive long enough.
My wife also ownthe same reg set, and I have tweeked it to the "top end" to allow her to get some decent performance out of it. She will occassionally grab mine (Scubapro) from my mouth to see the difference........she's always suprised at the difference.
I call her set "The Brick" as in, it breathes like one
kingprawn
Contributor
Rufurst,
I dive my Abyss down to 120-140 regularly. I do not notice a difference with the depth. I am scheduled to take Deco Procedures in the spring, so I talked to my instructor about his recommendations for the class. My one question was Should I be considering an Apex or Scubapro? (he sells both). His answer: Why would you want a reg you have to adjust underwater? Dont you have enough to do? Stay with the Abyss. Here is a customer asking to spend $500+, and he said no.
My instructor has 5000+ dives, and runs the dive shop. On his doubles he dives with two MR-22 first stages, an Abyss primary, an older second stage for backup (a Vortex I think). He uses this configuration in class and for pleasure. When not teaching he usually dives 140 + and has been on the Andrea Doria (240 fsw) several times.
If he dives the Andrea Doria on the Abyss, I think you and I will be fine at 130+.
I dive my Abyss down to 120-140 regularly. I do not notice a difference with the depth. I am scheduled to take Deco Procedures in the spring, so I talked to my instructor about his recommendations for the class. My one question was Should I be considering an Apex or Scubapro? (he sells both). His answer: Why would you want a reg you have to adjust underwater? Dont you have enough to do? Stay with the Abyss. Here is a customer asking to spend $500+, and he said no.
My instructor has 5000+ dives, and runs the dive shop. On his doubles he dives with two MR-22 first stages, an Abyss primary, an older second stage for backup (a Vortex I think). He uses this configuration in class and for pleasure. When not teaching he usually dives 140 + and has been on the Andrea Doria (240 fsw) several times.
If he dives the Andrea Doria on the Abyss, I think you and I will be fine at 130+.
Why would I want a reg I had to (could) adjust under water......
Maybe he skipped that class in AOW???
heheheh
Is that question for real?
I guess we should discern between regs we "could" dive to 200ft, and ones that it would be prudent to use at 200ft.
Maybe he skipped that class in AOW???
heheheh
Is that question for real?
I guess we should discern between regs we "could" dive to 200ft, and ones that it would be prudent to use at 200ft.
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