Logging dives towards instructor exam by hanging off anchor line at 20'?

[HowardE]

It's not cave diving, it's the requirements to become a cavern instructor for PADI. It's just showing a pattern. I could get my cave cert, do 20 dives to just beyond the cavern zone and submit this to PADI and become a cavern instructor without ever doing another cave dive, or a "real" cave dive for that matter. Actually, I don't even need to do the dives. No logs required.

The whole thing seems stupid... If someone has 90 dives, and can qualify for the OWSI then what's the big whoop? Make them do 10 more useless dives to meet the pre-requisite? This place isn't the only place that allows, or encourages IDCs to do this hang on the line for 15-20 minutes, and log 3 dives in 1 hour. But is this thread to PADI bash, or to bash instructors who are PADI, or to look carefully at the pre-requisite for becoming an instructor.

It's shouldn't be about an arbitrary number of dives, but rather the skills required should be real. Someone that is a newly certified OWSI can't go out and teach cavern diving, can they?

Do instructors have to have specific knowledge at all? Or can an OWSI teach anything under the sun? (really I don't know - I'm not an instructor)

 

[Dive-aholic]

This isn't about PADI bashing. I'm a PADI instructor. I know most agencies have the numbers requirements and I'm sure other instructor candidates do similar dives to pad the log book. I agree. The skills should be real and required. Unfortunately they're not, not only with PADI but with other agencies as well.

Yes, a newly certified OWSI can teach cavern as long as he/she is full cave certified and takes a cavern specialty instructor course with a course director. The course requires no dives. It's a didactic course that teaches the new instructor how to teach PADI specialties. Actually, a new OWSI can teach any specialty that way, if they're willing to pay the money for all those courses. The cheaper way is to certify 25 divers and apply for it directly to PADI.

 

[Thalassamania]

The whole thing seems stupid... If someone has 90 dives, and can qualify for the OWSI then what's the big whoop? Make them do 10 more useless dives to meet the pre-requisite? This place isn't the only place that allows, or encourages IDCs to do this hang on the line for 15-20 minutes, and log 3 dives in 1 hour. But is this thread to PADI bash, or to bash instructors who are PADI, or to look carefully at the pre-requisite for becoming an instructor.

I think the purpose of this thread is to "bash" the poor level of instructor candidate preparation and the "wink and nod" attitude towards preparatory standards that many commercial instructor mills demonstrate and that some training agencies evidently tolerate.

 

[HowardE]

Yes, a newly certified OWSI can teach cavern as long as he/she is full cave certified and takes a cavern specialty instructor course with a course director. The course requires no dives. It's a didactic course that teaches the new instructor how to teach PADI specialties. Actually, a new OWSI can teach any specialty that way, if they're willing to pay the money for all those courses.

Interesting... Wouldn't it be more prudent to actually have real life experience in the specific course? You mean - someone could teach wreck diving without ever having been inside of a wreck? That's ludicrous!?!

The cheaper way is to certify 25 divers and apply for it directly to PADI.

Can you explain this more?


- I think the real issue isn't the # of dives someone has, but the # of skills one posesses. I don't think that there's a problem with someone with less than 100 dives teaching Basic Open Water, but beyond that, I would find that hard to believe that someone with 100 dives could and should be allowed to teach anything else.

 

[Orlando Eric]

HAnging on a line to get your Req'd dives in so you can get the Instructor card in is the topic. I aggree this is a FOOLISH practice. I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH rather do some beach diving.

As to the Instructor mill I am against it. What can you do about it though?

Many people want to see higher standards but there are Lots and lots of people with cash in hand who do not want to make it harder.

My previous experience in this realm is in Martial Arts. There are rough and tumble classes where you get bruises, sweaty and occasionally bleed. Then there are "Ka-Ro-Bics" classes where you can step out of line, get a smoothie, or a ice cream from the organic cooler. Both of these schools offer the same 7 stitch black belt.

Until there is an Ultimate Diving Challenge Octagon there will continue to be Zero to Hero classes (6 months) Instructors out there.

There is nothing funnier to me than watching a "Professional" getting tangled, crashing, or just that look of "WhatdaIdoNOW" look. Before I get flamed I help out.. AFTER I watch for a bit.

(PS I watch for my amusement and to see if they can work it out for themselves... I learned that from Walter)

 

[jviehe]

The divemaster requirements are more than just 100 dives. This is probably one of the least critical attributes for a DM to have. I know people with 20 dives who would be good DMs, and ones with 200 who wouldnt. What about someone who has 20 OW dives and 80 full cave dives? What arbitrary number do you think this req should be? How do you propose an instructor or and agency verify that each and every dive was of some specific quality?

The answer to any question like this is that the standards for completing a specific course are minimums to assist an instructor in turning out a good DM. The requirements and standards do not make someone a good DM, that is the role of the instructor.

 

[baitedstorm]

There is nothing funnier to me than watching a "Professional" getting tangled, crashing, or just that look of "WhatdaIdoNOW" look. Before I get flamed I help out.. AFTER I watch for a bit.

You forgot to mention after you spend a few moments laughing and shaking your head.. I think that Instructor guy got hung up two or three times on that one dive we did ages ago. He did become a much better diver, even if he did miss the reef a few times, with a little more experience.



I wish to God everyone had your diving ethics (I'm grateful that most of the Conchs I've dived with do too, I just wish some of my students did as well). I'm appalled when a student (specially when it was some of the SRT guys in training) want to take short cuts. If I allowed that, what would it say about me as an Instructor. I remember when I was doing my IDC class, the Course Directors would assign problems to mock students (fellow Instructor candidates) for a particular Instructor candidate to figure out underwater. The couple that was in my group were such newbies that they couldn't even mimic a problem. Instead, they added about five additional problems that often left me rolling my eyes and shaking my head (I learned quickly to make one of them my pretend DM for the exercise). This couple had quit their jobs from a land locked environment, moved to South FL, got certified and took the fast track to becoming Instructors. Although both were brilliantly smart and well educated (one was a doctor), they were a dangerous mess under the water. One day, with practice, hopefully they'll be great divers, but the thought of them taking....say... my sister into the ocean and training her would make my skin crawl in fear.

I'm not trying to bash PADI, after all, I am a PADI Instructor too, but some of their beliefs do frighten me. I was offered different Instructor cards (to teach specialty classes) and I thought, good Lord, I just got my OWSI card, I have under a 1000 dives, no way am I qualified to teach some of that stuff without some serious training first.

When it comes to diving, there is no substitute for real life experience. You can read every book you can get your hands on, talk to thousands of divers, but when it comes right down to it you still need life experience, it will ultimately be your saving grace.

 

[jeandiver]

The divemaster requirements are more than just 100 dives. This is probably one of the least critical attributes for a DM to have. I know people with 20 dives who would be good DMs, and ones with 200 who wouldnt. What about someone who has 20 OW dives and 80 full cave dives? What arbitrary number do you think this req should be? How do you propose an instructor or and agency verify that each and every dive was of some specific quality?

The answer to any question like this is that the standards for completing a specific course are minimums to assist an instructor in turning out a good DM. The requirements and standards do not make someone a good DM, that is the role of the instructor.

Hmmm...20 OW dives and 80 full cave dives...Interesting !!!
Seriously , I agree with what you said...
It's not the card , it's not even the number of dives , it's the diver.
There is ALWAYS the human factor behind that dive mask... :11:

I guess if someone wants to hang at 20 feet for 15-20 minutes and call it a dive , well , that's their choice.

As for me , I couldn't do that. But that's just me.

BaitedStorm: WELL SAID!!!! (high-5)
It's the life-experiences that make us what we are.

Jeano Beano

 

[RiverRat]

I think the problem is that the mentoring system is gone as I see it. LDS' want to push for IDC right away. Brings in $. New Instructors bring in $. I'm a fairly new DM and have been approached several times for IDC. I just don't think it's right. Maybe if you're only gonna do pool work for awhile, but even then isn't it best to learn from a good diver that actualy has some experience in many environments and can pass on some valuable info? I'm fine right now helping out and learning by working with various Instructors. I take what I like from them and ***** about (to myself) what I think is crap teaching. Sort of "self mentoring" I guess. I'm in no hurry. It's not like I DM for and $ or anything. I do it to stay active diving and I really do enjoy helping divers get started.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think the problem is that the mentoring system is gone as I see it. LDS' want to push for IDC right away. Brings in $. New Instructors bring in $.

Brings in new $ to create the instructor and with each new instructor created it brings down the $ that experienced instructors would demand. There is no mentoring system since all diving education is now a financial arrangement. You want to learn something? Pay me! I'm a PROFESSIONAL!