Logging dives towards instructor exam by hanging off anchor line at 20'?

[GDI]

I was asked in pm to clarify a point of whether a Cave instructor could accpet a PADI cavern card from a student wanting to advance in this area of diving. As with any course the emphasis is on the instructor to evaluate the studnets skill level and determine if that student is ready to move on. Unfortunately this lacking of correct skill requirements and continued training occurs all to often for reasons ranging from the instructor not having the experience and wanting to certify divers to those who do not really care and only do it for the money. They exist in any and all agency's

The cavern diver with a PADI Cavern Specialty Card, Can their card be accepted by the cave instructor? The answer is yes it can be but here are the conditions as to how that will happen:

First lets understand the instructors ethics (NACD):


o Each NACD Instructor shall maintain an attitude of professionalism and objectivity and support the concept of safety in cavern and cave diving.
o Each NACD Instructor will refrain from encouraging or recruiting individuals to cavern
or cave dive if unqualified to do so.
o Each NACD Instructor will make every effort to pass on their knowledge to novice
cavern and cave divers and the diving community if requested to do so, whether
through formal instruction, answering questions or via appropriate publication in books,
journals and magazines.

Since the student seeking additional training from the cavern level is most likely taking an Intro -to Cave. then the standard is as follows:

3. PREREQUISITES:
A. NACD cavern diver or equivalent.
B. Minimum of 25 logged non training dives.
C. Minimum age 16, with signed parental consent. Provisional status certification for younger divers with written approval by the NACD training director.

You the instructor must define equivalent: That is up to the instructor and confirmed via validation of skills in water and theory knowledge.. here is the standard that the NACD instructor can refer to:

7. To recognize divers with previous training in the cavern/cave environment and to enable instructors the option, upon evaluation of a student to credit a limited amount of previous training towards the applicable course while still maintaining completion of all skills in that course.
8. To permit experienced cave divers without benefit of formal training, credit of experience and learned skills toward the applicable course, if deemed acceptable by the instructor based on a performance evaluation and with approval of the training director. A minimum number of dives as specified in the course undertaken will still be required. All performance skills will be done in the course under the supervision of the instructor.


Now basically as I stated earlier the instructor should always validate and evaluate their students HONESTLY to determine if they are ready to advance to the next level. The instructor is on the line here for liability and professionally and for the sake of the diving community as a whole

 

[jeandiver]

GDI:
A big thanks !!!!!
(for the above thread(s) )

Jeano Beano

 

[RiverRat]

Thanks for the info guys. As a DM that may do the IDC someday this is really enlightening. I'm holding off on IDC this year. Not just because I don't really have the coin but I feel I'd be at odds working for a local shop. I've seen so much crap I just don't know if it's worth it to "work" in the context of that particular environment. I have a certain way of doing things. I've seen a lot of "junk" for lack of a better term. I'm sure I could at least make a difference by trying to do the right thing. And I have to do the IDC somewhere. I dunno, I think I'll just go for that NACD Cavern class this year and get some more diving in. I'll get to IDC later on maybe.

 

[divedude1962]

This may be a tad off center but to follow some of the logic here I would ask: if an instructor or DM is doing an OW pool session, does that count as a dive? Breathing compressed air at depth (even though a pool is shallow) is one definition of a dive.

 

[HowardE]

This may be a tad off center but to follow some of the logic here I would ask: if an instructor or DM is doing an OW pool session, does that count as a dive? Breathing compressed air at depth (even though a pool is shallow) is one definition of a dive.

That again... depends on whom you ask. There are several threads on SB regarding "should pool dives count" ?

If someone is that desperate to count dives toward a logged dive count... :shakehead

 

[jviehe]

I think PADI at least defines a dive as: 20 minutes or breathing 50cuft of gas at an average depth of 15ft or deeper.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think PADI at least defines a dive as: 20 minutes or breathing 50cuft of gas at an average depth of 15ft or deeper.

That definition (along with an average depth requirement too, if I remember right)applies to student dives. When course standards require 4 dives (or whatever) it is supposed to be dives that meet that criteria. However, if you look through all the Q&A type stuff in the journal you'll see that there are exceptions to that. For instance...if you get part way through a OW dive 2 and there is a problem or someone gets cold or something and the dive is called early, can you still count it?

When it comes to what you consider a dive in your own log book, I'm not sure there is anything in the standards. I would not consider anything in confined water as an OW dive. On the other hand there are some very short and/or very shallow dives that can get pretty serious. I would log those if the actual content of your log is important to you. One of my most adrenalin filled cave dives was a max depth of 9 ft for a total bottom time of 19 minutes and I didn't breath anywhere near 50 cu ft of gas. LOL but the numbers alone just don't do the dive justice. Was it a dive? My money says that you would think so if you were there.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Thanks for the info guys. As a DM that may do the IDC someday this is really enlightening. I'm holding off on IDC this year. Not just because I don't really have the coin but I feel I'd be at odds working for a local shop. I've seen so much crap I just don't know if it's worth it to "work" in the context of that particular environment. I have a certain way of doing things. I've seen a lot of "junk" for lack of a better term. I'm sure I could at least make a difference by trying to do the right thing. And I have to do the IDC somewhere. I dunno, I think I'll just go for that NACD Cavern class this year and get some more diving in. I'll get to IDC later on maybe.

Making a difference...
No doubt, there are plenty of instructors out there who have some of the same concerns. Some of those instructors are determined to teach with the intention of doing right by their students in spite of whatever problems they believe may exist in the industry or with a specific agency.

I think you could teach a class such that your students would be better off because you were the one teaching it. I also feel that pumping money into some agencies only encourages and rewards some of the things in the industry that I am very much against. You have things on the good side of the scale and things on the bad side. How you see the scale tipping, the approach you take to trying to influence it and what you see as most important is kind of a personal thing. You know what they say? You have to choose your battles and you can't fight them all even if you would like to. Do you want to contribute by teaching well or do you want to take on the agency? I think you might make some difference either way. Which works out better might depend on your own nature and your own talents. Things are only changed from the inside. At the same time, the inspiration for change sometimes comes from the outside.

For me, I wanted to say things that I didn't feel I could (or should) say as an agency member. I ditched the agency and speak freely. I think you should do what you think best. If you try to contribute in whichever you think best, I'd be happy to buy you one (or more) can, bottle or draft of your choice any day of the week.

 

[jviehe]

Making a difference...
No doubt, there are plenty of instructors out there who have some of the same concerns. Some of those instructors are determined to teach with the intention of doing right by their students in spite of whatever problems they believe may exist in the industry or with a specific agency.

I think you could teach a class such that your students would be better off because you were the one teaching it. I also feel that pumping money into some agencies only encourages and rewards some of the things in the industry that I am very much against. You have things on the good side of the scale and things on the bad side. How you see the scale tipping, the approach you take to trying to influence it and what you see as most important is kind of a personal thing. You know what they say? You have to choose your battles and you can't fight them all even if you would like to. Do you want to contribute by teaching well or do you want to take on the agency? I think you might make some difference either way. Which works out better might depend on your own nature and your own talents. Things are only changed from the inside. At the same time, the inspiration for change sometimes comes from the outside.

For me, I wanted to say things that I didn't feel I could (or should) say as an agency member. I ditched the agency and speak freely. I think you should do what you think best. If you try to contribute in whichever you think best, I'd be happy to buy you one (or more) can, bottle or draft of your choice any day of the week.

I agree and think you made the right decision. If you continue to stick with agency you disagree with then no one wins.