Line Arrows

[karstdvr]

Wow, all that's missing from this specious emotional statement is a tug-at-the-heartstrings plea of "Do it for the Children!"

Actually, the greater risk is one lone person (see mirror) trying to rewrite what's taught by all the major agencies. That carries a greater risk than one incident.

On one hand you're telling Rick to understand the entire system before doing jumps and to place arrow completely different than how he was taught by a major agency (pointing to the closest exit, rather than your entrance point -- see earlier in this thread) yet you then turn around and point to a group of divers that didn’t understand the system very well at all and got lost by merely bumping into a jump arrow (with a line going off of it, if I understand your example).

I’m all for understanding the system, but your “arrow always pointing to the closest exit” will really make an exit difficult...

(Peacock knowledge required below)

So I go in Peanut and jump to the crossover. I guess I don’t put an arrow anywhere on the main line, since the closest exit at that point is Olsen, which is along the jump line, and not along the main line that I’m leaving. Then I jump into the Olsen bypass, but instead of putting an arrow pointing to the peanut line, I put an arrow pointing to the Pothole line (the “wrong” way for my exit). Then half way down the bypass I take the jump to the right (anyone got a name for that tunnel?), and put an arrow pointing back towards the crossover.

So I turn the dive in that last tunnel. Now on exit the first arrow I follow, the second arrow I go in the opposite direction and the last jump isn’t marked. My, how nice. NOT!

Yhea, I know you’re arguing for cookies to be placed on the exit side of the jumps, and I don’t have a problem with that – go for it. But you have people trained to use arrows, so your training better include how to exclude “private” arrows upon exit, and it really isn't that hard.

I never put an arrow on a line unless it’s for a jump, that's my training. So my “private” arrows always have a jump line attached – an exiting team can easily determine that it’s a “private” arrow and ignore it. If I’m going to drop something on a line in the middle of nowhere it’s a cookie; totally non-directional so it’s sure to be non-confusing.

Actually there is a concern putting a cookie on the exit side of a jump. If it’s a non-perpendicular jump, the line can slide away from the cookie. In a silt-out you may return to the line and be unable to find the cookie, and not know which way to go. Such a person might have children, so for gods sake, use line arrows and lock your line on them!

DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN!

Roak

I don't do it for the children I do it for you.

Here is a situation I see a lot. Somebody is going to do the grand traverse the first time and they swim from peacock to 200-300' short of challange,and typically they will mark their 1/3s with a marker. That marker in some cases will be a line arrow,and since their intended direction of travel is from orange grove,they will point that line arrow in the direction pointing toward olsen. Is this correct protocol,never mind the fact they didn't use a cookie,they chose a line arrow?

Maybe one of the themes I am finding from newer cave divers is that personal line arrows are for your use,and not for the intended use of others,which is I guess is how you were trained. My training and experience,and the some of the North Florida instructors I've talked to about this agree that there should never be anything confusing about the navigation markers-basically line arrows should always agree and should be a no brainer,so that a team exiting in an emergency shouldn't have to stop and figure it out for any length of time. Since you appear to have the pulse of the training standards of all the agenices,and I am apparently a relic of training standards that are over 10 years old,I would greatly appreciate your reference.

 

[karstdvr]

I was trained to never use an arrow except in a lost buddy/line situation, sometimes I use an arrow if I feel like it, but there's no good enough reason to put in a arrow that contradicts the permanent arrows. Yes, there's a line attached to it, yes, there's personal markings on it, yes, it's not tied into the line the way permanent arrows are, but considering the stress a team that's on the line may be under it's best to not make it any worse.

Ben
Your observations are good,and based on experience due the number of times I see you at different sites.
Good diving

 

[karstdvr]

There was an accident in mexico in the not so distant past. A team of 4 with 2 survivors. The survivors stated they even looked at their cookie after returning from a jump and still went the wrong way, down a line they had been on a couple days previously; following the arrows when they should have been travelling against arrows for the 100 feet between the two jumps they took. They travelled upwards of 1000 feet before hitting a jump required to get to the exit, which they couldn't find.

They turned around, and headed back the full distance to their exit, and 3 of the 4 divers ran out of gas short of the exit.

We can pull accidents out all day. But the above accident was not any fault of permanent line marking; it was the result of complacency and the lack of paying attention to where they were. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to remember "jump, turn right after the jump [direction of cookie], 100 feet against arrows, jump right at snap & gap, leave". Yet they travelled over 1000 feet going with the arrows before they turned back.

An accident involving personally placed markers with jump spools coming off of it doesn't prove that the personally placed markers were the fault... it very well could be someone trusting in the unverified line and marker system and not paying attention to places where a possible jump line could exist when they are returning. If they were past the midpoint in a traverse or circuit, it's known that you travel back the way you came, and don't continue on to the closest exit, because you don't know what is between you and that exit... regardless of what direction the arrows point. Arrows are for reference, not to be blindly followed.

If your reference came across a jump line that wasn't marked, and chose to follow that instead of staying on the line... is that the fault of the jumper? What if that jump had a cookie on the jumpers exit side, which was against the permanent arrow placement and they chose to assume that was the direction, since the cookie placement indicates direction... is that the fault of the jumper?

My point? It's a jump that wasn't there when you came in. It -could- be an indication that you are going the wrong way. Or it could be a jump that was added after you passed. You make a mental note of it, and keep going until you find definitive proof you are going the wrong direction. cookie or not, arrow or not, it's a temporary placement that you've not personally verified. it's ignored.

I am aware of the accident you mention,and that is a good point,but my reference is line arrows that conflict each other ie Madison blue accident. I know the people who did the recovery and the analysis, and one of the contributing factors was a line arrow that was facing away from the direction of exit. It was determined the team would have had enough gas for an exit,with all things being equal,if they weren't confused by somebody's line arrow that was installed facing the opposite direction of the permenant line arrows. This team was very stressed for obvious reasons and in touch contact with the line, and they went back and forth a total of 3 times because of the conflicting message that the line arrows were telling them

 

[Spectre]

I am aware of the accident you mention,and that is a good point,but my reference is line arrows that conflict each other ie Madison blue accident. I know the people who did the recovery and the analysis, and one of the contributing factors was a line arrow that was facing away from the direction of exit.

I can't find any reports of that accident [unless it's the 1999 one but there wasn't anything I saw about a conflicting line arrow].

Was it with a jump reel?
Was it there on their way in?

 

[karstdvr]

I can't find any reports of that accident [unless it's the 1999 one but there wasn't anything I saw about a conflicting line arrow].

Was it with a jump reel?
Was it there on their way in?

I'm going from memory here,so please don't fault me. This was around the time of the collapse at the half hitch. I recall there being a line arrow placed facing the opposite direction,and one of the things that proved what happened is they downloaded one of the victim's dive computers and found that the depth measurements showed they went back and forth at this area. If I can I'll try to dig through my stacks of journals to find the accident analysis.

I do know of a couple of nondocumented incidents that occured do to the same type of reason,fortunately nobody was hurt.

 

[Spectre]

I'm going from memory here,so please don't fault me. This was around the time of the collapse at the half hitch. I recall there being a line arrow placed facing the opposite direction,and one of the things that proved what happened is they downloaded one of the victim's dive computers and found that the depth measurements showed they went back and forth at this area. If I can I'll try to dig through my stacks of journals to find the accident analysis.

I guess what I'm trying to find out is if it was an arrow placed after they entered, and if it was just a random arrow placed on the line, or left on the line when a team came through; jumped, then cleaned up.

If that arrow was there when they entered... then it falls into entirely what we are saying.... people not personally verifying markers. Missing an opposing line arrow on your way in is just as bad as missing a broken line, IMHO.

 

[karstdvr]

I guess what I'm trying to find out is if it was an arrow placed after they entered, and if it was just a random arrow placed on the line, or left on the line when a team came through; jumped, then cleaned up.

If that arrow was there when they entered... then it falls into entirely what we are saying.... people not personally verifying markers. Missing an opposing line arrow on your way in is just as bad as missing a broken line, IMHO.

I don't think that question was ever answered,and due to possible litigation at the time,nobody would say. I do think it was determined the broken line was caused by that team in the accident,since another team verified it was okay earlier. If I recall a splice was put in at the half hitch from the collapse,and the integrity of this splice was questioned.

Most of us swim along and look at formations and speleotherms,and take occasional glances at the line,but how many people stare at the line the whole dive to verify line markers. It probably is a good idea,but in reality it doesn't get that close of scrutiny. I'm of the school that all line arrows point to the cloest exit,whether they are permenant or personal;but when I'm at the "tourist" caves I will look a little closer.
The good news is that some of this will change,but that is chapter 2 for the future.

 

[OneBrightGator]

Agency? Does their text reflect this methodology?

NACD, my instructor was the President of said agency at the time of my training so I would assume so, it didn't/doesn't really matter much to me, he has the experience to know what works the best and had the reasoning to back it up, I didn't need an admittedly outdated text to back it up.