Line Arrows

[Rick Murchison]

Team was exiting in zero viz and were following line arrows-the only navigation means they had. They found line arrows pointing in the same direction,and suddenly found a line arrow pointing the other direction. They reverse course

Why? Were all the line arrows they were using theirs?
This illustrates my point perfectly. The only line arrows that have meaning are your own or those you have verified. My line arrows are unique and easily identified by feel as well as by visible markings.
Let's follow your logic... you are returning in zero viz when you find two clothes pins, or two cookies (because you aren't the only one in the system), one on either side of an intersection. Which one do you follow?
Clothes pins, cookies, arrows... makes no difference. The only ones that count are yours, and you should mark yours with both visible and tactile unique marks. All other cookies, clothes pins and arrows you come across are meaningless.
Rick

 

[The Kraken]

Kraken
It is not uncommon for cave divers to become defensive about some things. Ever so often you'll find a OW or OWSI who feels like they've learned everything about cave diving they need to know from books or internet forums,and they are ready to go out and test this knowledge. There are so many cave diving sites that are uncontrolled,and these people will go there,and sometimes drown. The media treat these people as if they are trained cave divers,and this accident does harm to our sport and leads to negative public perception. I know you are asking a simple question about Holtzendorf markers (correct name),and you are not asking how to package fissionable material for highest mega-ton yield,but you have to realize there can be some sensitivities. I will tell you that cave divers don't hold the market on line arrows,and there are some OW uses. I have been on very large ship wrecks in 10' of viz. I have seen cross wreck lines placed on the wreck with a line arrow pointing back to the anchor line.

It would behoove a reader to read a post and comprehend its meaning before becoming so "defensive" of one's hobby. A hobby isn't proprietery property on any one person.

As so clearly stated in my post, I don't desire to dive caves, I just wanted to know which end of the arrow pointed to the exit. No more no less.

I thank all of you for your responses.

My question has been answered.

We can consider this thread closed.

the K

 

[Jason B]

Team was exiting in zero viz and were following line arrows-the only navigation means they had. They found line arrows pointing in the same direction,and suddenly found a line arrow pointing the other direction. They reverse course and find the line arrow pointing the original direction of travel,in fact they go back and forth a couple times due to confusing line arrows,possibily out of concern they missed a T. This travel time back and forth determining correct navigation cost them substantial amount of time aka air.

Who's arrows were they following? Their own or someone else's? You never follow someone else's arrows, they are meaningless to you.

 

[roakey]

Ok, I'll take a run at answering this too...

Without sprinkling "typically" throughout this reply, bear in mind there are exceptions. Sometimes many exceptions .

There's two kind of lines and arrows you'll find in caves, "permanent" lines and arrows in the more developed caves, which is gold kermantle line, and the lines (and arrows) that are placed by the dive team themselves.

Permanent arrows on the permanent lines point toward the closest exit, with the midpoint between exits having two arrows, pointing in opposite directions. Major jumps are marked with two arrows, both point toward the closest exit, minor jumps are marked with one arrow and some jumps are completely unmarked.

Arrows placed by the dive team always point in the direction where the team came from, so on exit the entrance path can be retraced (note this may be in "conflict" with the permanent arrows!). The only time I've used my own arrows is when I've done an unmarked jump, so an exiting team in zero-vis will find my arrow AND a jump line coming from it so they would know that it's a "private" arrow and should be ignored (plus the arrow is not tied in place, another thing you can detect by touch alone).

There are also non-directional markers (pins or cookies) that are used for a variety of tasks, like maximum penetration when setting up a circuit.

Roak

 

[Otter]

Roger,
Thanks for the info. What is the typical way that temporary line arrows are modified so that you can id your own arrow by touch? Notches?

 

[Rick Murchison]

Roger,
Thanks for the info. What is the typical way that temporary line arrows are modified so that you can id your own arrow by touch? Notches?

Notches, clipped corners, punched holes, zipties through punched holes - combinations of those... I cut my own arrows out of pool chemical container lids that have raised letters and wavy plastic - never seen anyone else with anything like 'em.
Rick
Oops! just noticed this is closed... sorry.

 

[GDI]

Kraken,

In short line arrows when placed or verified always pointing to the exit. When you have two arrows that are back to back then yes this means the mid point between two exits. Two arrows pointing in the same direction can mean a jump point but they also mean the Prefferred exit direction as in the case of a T or Y junction. Cave divers will only rely on the arrows they have personally marked, placed or have verified. They will always exit to the "known" proven exiting passage until such time as they have fully learned the passage by completing a series of traverses and circuits. Everything a cave diver does in marking a passage is not to penetrate the passage it is to exit the passage and cave system

 

[The Kraken]

You know, logic would dictate that the pointed end WOULD point to the exit, but when ignorant, one never knows.

It's really strange, I love wrecks and wreck penetration, but I WILL NOT DIVE A CAVE!.

I got trapped in a dry cave for several hours when I was a Boy Scout. To this day I won't go back into a dry cave, much less a wet one!

Know your capabilities and limitations . . . and honor them.

Thanx for the information, guys.

I will live vicariously through YOUR exploits!

I would require triple 300's just to satisfy my highly elevated SAC, not to mention the 15 to 20 stage bottles!

Dennis

 

[The Kraken]

OK!! Enough already.
Conceding to an overwhelming demand, I'm reopening this thread.
That, plus a warm, sloppy kiss from some shaggy, black Heinz-57 variety mutt . . .

Have at it . . .

"Cry, "FOUL", and let slip the dogs of war . . ."

"Let loose the Kraken . . ."

the K

 

[karstdvr]

Permanent arrows on the permanent lines point toward the closest exit, with the midpoint between exits having two arrows, pointing in opposite directions. Major jumps are marked with two arrows, both point toward the closest exit, minor jumps are marked with one arrow and some jumps are completely unmarked.

Arrows placed by the dive team always point in the direction where the team came from, so on exit the entrance path can be retraced (note this may be in "conflict" with the permanent arrows!). The only time I've used my own arrows is when I've done an unmarked jump, so an exiting team in zero-vis will find my arrow AND a jump line coming from it so they would know that it's a "private" arrow and should be ignored (plus the arrow is not tied in place, another thing you can detect by touch alone).

In the danger of having this discussion being shut down,I will reply by saying this could result in the loss of navigation of a team,and their demise.

Imagine you are in a silt out or lights out,and you are in touch contact with the line for your exit. How do you differentiate a "permenant line arrow" from one that was placed on the line by another team? It is great we notch it,drill holes in it,write on it,but unless I am aware of these things,it is meaningless. For example,you are doing a jump and in your reference you placed a line arrow that contradicts the "permenant" line arrows. Another team that is having an emergency with lights out,or geologic event with a silt out is causing them to be in touch contact with the line. The "permenant" line arrow is telling them by feel that this is the direction of exit. Then they encounter your line arrow that tells them the exit is the other way since it contradicts the last line arrow. They don't understand the notch you put on the arrow means that is your personal marker and just ignore it,especially if they are a little (more likely a lot) stressed. The team will go back the direction from which they came to find the "permenant" line arrow pointing them back to your "temporary" line arrow. Thinking they've blown a T,they may go back and forth several times to figure out what is going on,which is costing them valuable air.

What I mention above has really happened,several times,and one such event a whole team of cave divers died! Never should anything be placed on the line that could contradict a navigation aide. If unsure of what to do,then swim ahead and learn what the line arrows exhibit so you are not in contradiction;or perhaps place a nondirectional marker in.