Line Arrows

[Otter]

Yes, it is, isn't it?
Knowledge is such a useless thing.

You know, some members respond to a question with a very civil and polite, "yes", while others . . . ?

the K

Knowledge is power, therefore some people simply don't want you to know.?.?.?

 

[theskull]

Yes, it is, isn't it?
Knowledge is such a useless thing.

You know, some members respond to a question with a very civil and polite, "yes", while others . . . ?

the K

Dude, mellow out. You already had the answer from another responder. I didn't charge that you were trying to "trick" anyone out of training.

I was simply curious why you would want to know something that only applied to cave diving when you never plan to cave dive, and that would be provided if you did take the training.

So, please notice, that my simple curiosity was responded to by you with less than "a very civil and polite" answer.

theskull

 

[theskull]

Y'all get testy around here.

theskull

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Y'all get testy around here.

theskull

When you stress certain words, it makes your comments look testy.

Why even ask if you NEVER plan to do any cave diving? If you DID decide to do some cave diving, surely you would get training first, and it would then be explained.

theskull

The way you typed that message sounds to me like you're more than curious as to why he wants to know and more why YOU think he shouldn't know...

Maybe thats not what you meant, but thats sure how it came across to me... and it didn't come across polite either.

 

[karstdvr]

Yes, it is, isn't it?
Knowledge is such a useless thing.

You know, some members respond to a question with a very civil and polite, "yes", while others . . . ?

the K

Kraken
It is not uncommon for cave divers to become defensive about some things. Ever so often you'll find a OW or OWSI who feels like they've learned everything about cave diving they need to know from books or internet forums,and they are ready to go out and test this knowledge. There are so many cave diving sites that are uncontrolled,and these people will go there,and sometimes drown. The media treat these people as if they are trained cave divers,and this accident does harm to our sport and leads to negative public perception. I know you are asking a simple question about Holtzendorf markers (correct name),and you are not asking how to package fissionable material for highest mega-ton yield,but you have to realize there can be some sensitivities. I will tell you that cave divers don't hold the market on line arrows,and there are some OW uses. I have been on very large ship wrecks in 10' of viz. I have seen cross wreck lines placed on the wreck with a line arrow pointing back to the anchor line.

 

[Rick Murchison]

There are conventions for their use, generally followed. The best source I know of for those conventions is Prosser & Grey's Cave Diving Communications.
But... I wouldn't bet my life that whoever placed a line arrow was following the conventions.
Therefore, the bottom line for line arrows is this:
The only line arrows that have any meaning are those I have placed myself, or whose position and direction I have personally verified. All others are meaningless.
Rick

 

[karstdvr]

There are conventions for their use, generally followed. The best source I know of for those conventions is Prosser & Grey's Cave Diving Communications.
But... I wouldn't bet my life that whoever placed a line arrow was following the conventions.
Therefore, the bottom line for line arrows is this:
The only line arrows that have any meaning are those I have placed myself, or whose position and direction I have personally verified. All others are meaningless.
Rick

At the present you'll find no consistent rules for line arrow placement throughout the sport,I don't mean what you read in written text. Line arrows should point to the closest exit,but this doesn't always hold true. You are correct in verifying line arrows for their accuracy before continuing. Typically the "permenant" line arrows in a system are generally accurate (notice the vague terms here),but the ones to be the most cautious with are the "temporary" line arrows placed by individuals who use it to anchor their gap line or set up a circuit,these can often be inaccurate and confusing. It has been good people are placing "cookies" on the line for this purpose which results in less navigation errors.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Line arrows should point to the closest exit

This ain't necessarily so... . Line arrows should point to the closest known exit. Let me use a specific example. If I am making my first dive ever in Peacock springs, head towards Olsen sink and then jump to the tunnel leading over to Peanut, I will properly place a line arrow on the Peacock-Olsen line that points to Peacock, even though Olsen is much closer. This is the correct placement because I have not yet been to Olsen. And even though I can see the permanent arrows are pointed in the other direction, until I've actually been to Olsen, my "closest exit" is back to Peacock.
Rick

 

[Randy43068]

I am curious about a ton of stuff I never plan to do. I doubt very seriously that he is trying to trick some "training" out of someone.

Like you I'm also curious about many many things I may never plan to do. I like to ask questions now and again, and don't expect a smart-Alec answer.
Thanks!

 

[karstdvr]

This ain't necessarily so... . Line arrows should point to the closest known exit. Let me use a specific example. If I am making my first dive ever in Peacock springs, head towards Olsen sink and then jump to the tunnel leading over to Peanut, I will properly place a line arrow on the Peacock-Olsen line that points to Peacock, even though Olsen is much closer. This is the correct placement because I have not yet been to Olsen. And even though I can see the permanent arrows are pointed in the other direction, until I've actually been to Olsen, my "closest exit" is back to Peacock.
Rick

Lets follow your logic. The example you are using I would assume going from peacock 1 to Olsen,and the left jump would be to the crossover line. At this crossover junction you are 100-200ft from Olsen,but you place your line arrow pointing toward P1 in contradiction to the permenant distance markers/line arrows. Here is a scenario that happened for real in another cave system. Team was exiting in zero viz and were following line arrows-the only navigation means they had. They found line arrows pointing in the same direction,and suddenly found a line arrow pointing the other direction. They reverse course and find the line arrow pointing the original direction of travel,in fact they go back and forth a couple times due to confusing line arrows,possibily out of concern they missed a T. This travel time back and forth determining correct navigation cost them substantial amount of time aka air.
The protocol you may consider doing is placing a clothes pin or cookie in so not to cause navigational contradiction, or avoid doing jumps until you can verify safe exit points and understand the line arrow placement.