Line Arrows

[roakey]

karstdvr, sounds like you have an issue that you should take up with the NSS-CDS, the NACD, GUE and IANTD.

They all teach it that way.

If you want to change the world have at it, but I'm a nobody, don't talk to me.

But to take a run at an answer, my line arrow has a jump line coming off of it. It's also not locked into the line by wrapping. Forget notches, etc. Those are two things that can easily be felt by the exiting team so they ignore my arrow.

Roak

 

[karstdvr]

karstdvr, sounds like you have an issue that you should take up with the NSS-CDS, the NACD, GUE and IANTD.

They all teach it that way.

If you want to change the world have at it, but I'm a nobody, don't talk to me.

But to take a run at an answer, my line arrow has a jump line coming off of it. It's also not locked into the line by wrapping. Forget notches, etc. Those are two things that can easily be felt by the exiting team so they ignore my arrow.

Roak

I am only pointing out that there are consequences for improper line arrow placement,and this has resulted in a couple of incidents and a couple of deaths. Our sport is based on accident analysis,and if we've had something go wrong based on improper line arrow placement,then we should take heed. I think if the line arrow is always pointing to the closest exit,and in agreement with other line arrows,then there can never be a mistake,based on navigation markers. Going to back to my original example of the team that traversed back and forth trying to determine the correct exit because of contradictory line arrows,I would feel awful if I knew that I was the one who installed that line arrow.

 

[Brian Gilpin]

Eavesdropping on this conversation makes cave diving sound even more dangerous than I thought. I would have imagined there would be broad agreement on something as basic as arrow placement. I can see why you would not want to trust any markers you had not placed.

I did do some cavern diving for a couple days at Akumal. One of the most interesting aspects was watching how the guide from Zero Gravity dealt with the lines. The caverns we were in didnt seem dangerous but nothing was taken for granted.Very precise and meticulous was the impresson I got.

 

[karstdvr]

Eavesdropping on this conversation makes cave diving sound even more dangerous than I thought. I would have imagined there would be broad agreement on something as basic as arrow placement. I can see why you would not want to trust any markers you had not placed.

I did do some cavern diving for a couple days at Akumal. One of the most interesting aspects was watching how the guide from Zero Gravity dealt with the lines. The caverns we were in didnt seem dangerous but nothing was taken for granted.Very precise and meticulous was the impresson I got.

Brian
Cave diving is actually more safe than driving to a dive site,in fact,in over a 1000+ cave dives I've done I have never encountered any major incidents. This comes from following the rules,that is why I am quite passionate about things like line arrows. When navigation markers are not done correctly we have a history of accidents in our sport.

You are right the cavern dives in Akumal/Tulum area are very impressive. If you have a chance to do it again take advantage of it,because I've seen the development plan for the Tulum area for the next 10 years,and it will include development over many of the cave systems that provide the air clear water. Mexico does a poor job of waste water elimination,and we'll see degradation of water quality over time.

 

[nova]

If all members of the team place their personal markers on all jumps then other divers should know that those directional markes are not theirs teams markers. should the team be seperated then the line is left and your personal marker comes off. This signals the other members that you have left the cave so there is no reason to keep searching for a lost diver. every marker tells a story, it's up to the diver to read it correctly. These markers are also use for rescue and recovery teams as well, that's one of the reasons for writing your name on the markers.(or initials)

 

[Jason B]

Imagine you are in a silt out or lights out,and you are in touch contact with the line for your exit. How do you differentiate a "permenant line arrow" from one that was placed on the line by another team? It is great we notch it,drill holes in it,write on it,but unless I am aware of these things,it is meaningless.

Should have looked at your buddy's markers pre-dive, then you would know of any identifying marks on your teams arrows (that is what I was taught).

For example,you are doing a jump and in your reference you placed a line arrow that contradicts the "permenant" line arrows.

Well do this one twice...
Contradicting a permanent arrow? As in how. The permanent arrow tells me which way to the closest navigable exit, and my line arrow points me to the navigable exit I entered. These are two very different things. What you are asking people to do here contradicts what is taught by all cave training agencies.

For example,you are doing a jump and in your reference you placed a line arrow that contradicts the "permenant" line arrows. Another team that is having an emergency with lights out,or geologic event with a silt out is causing them to be in touch contact with the line. The "permenant" line arrow is telling them by feel that this is the direction of exit. Then they encounter your line arrow that tells them the exit is the other way since it contradicts the last line arrow.

If the arrow causing the confusion is on the line because someone did a jump, then there will also be a reel tied in at that point. That alone should prevent any confusion.

They don't understand the notch you put on the arrow means that is your personal marker and just ignore it,especially if they are a little (more likely a lot) stressed. The team will go back the direction from which they came to find the "permenant" line arrow pointing them back to your "temporary" line arrow. Thinking they've blown a T,they may go back and forth several times to figure out what is going on,which is costing them valuable air.

I still want to know why they didn't feel the jump line that should be tied in to the main line (if the arrow was placed there because of a jump as you indicated in your scenario) or they should find a reel wrapped around the line if the arrow was there because a lost line search done or there should be a line tied into the arrow if there was a lost buddy search.

 

[roakey]

I would feel awful if I knew that I was the one who installed that line arrow.

Wow, all that's missing from this specious emotional statement is a tug-at-the-heartstrings plea of "Do it for the Children!"

Actually, the greater risk is one lone person (see mirror) trying to rewrite what's taught by all the major agencies. That carries a greater risk than one incident.

On one hand you're telling Rick to understand the entire system before doing jumps and to place arrow completely different than how he was taught by a major agency (pointing to the closest exit, rather than your entrance point -- see earlier in this thread) yet you then turn around and point to a group of divers that didn’t understand the system very well at all and got lost by merely bumping into a jump arrow (with a line going off of it, if I understand your example).

I’m all for understanding the system, but your “arrow always pointing to the closest exit” will really make an exit difficult...

(Peacock knowledge required below)

So I go in Peanut and jump to the crossover. I guess I don’t put an arrow anywhere on the main line, since the closest exit at that point is Olsen, which is along the jump line, and not along the main line that I’m leaving. Then I jump into the Olsen bypass, but instead of putting an arrow pointing to the peanut line, I put an arrow pointing to the Pothole line (the “wrong” way for my exit). Then half way down the bypass I take the jump to the right (anyone got a name for that tunnel?), and put an arrow pointing back towards the crossover.

So I turn the dive in that last tunnel. Now on exit the first arrow I follow, the second arrow I go in the opposite direction and the last jump isn’t marked. My, how nice. NOT!

Yhea, I know you’re arguing for cookies to be placed on the exit side of the jumps, and I don’t have a problem with that – go for it. But you have people trained to use arrows, so your training better include how to exclude “private” arrows upon exit, and it really isn't that hard.

I never put an arrow on a line unless it’s for a jump, that's my training. So my “private” arrows always have a jump line attached – an exiting team can easily determine that it’s a “private” arrow and ignore it. If I’m going to drop something on a line in the middle of nowhere it’s a cookie; totally non-directional so it’s sure to be non-confusing.

Actually there is a concern putting a cookie on the exit side of a jump. If it’s a non-perpendicular jump, the line can slide away from the cookie. In a silt-out you may return to the line and be unable to find the cookie, and not know which way to go. Such a person might have children, so for gods sake, use line arrows and lock your line on them!

DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN!

Roak

 

[OneBrightGator]

If you're afraid of your line sliding down the line, then use the round cookies that lock on the line just like arrows and toss a clothes pin on your exit side.

I was trained to never use an arrow except in a lost buddy/line situation, sometimes I use an arrow if I feel like it, but there's no good enough reason to put in a arrow that contradicts the permanent arrows. Yes, there's a line attached to it, yes, there's personal markings on it, yes, it's not tied into the line the way permanent arrows are, but considering the stress a team that's on the line may be under it's best to not make it any worse.

 

[roakey]

I was trained to never use an arrow except in a lost buddy/line situation...

Agency? Does their text reflect this methodology?

Roak

 

[Spectre]

I am only pointing out that there are consequences for improper line arrow placement,and this has resulted in a couple of incidents and a couple of deaths.

There was an accident in mexico in the not so distant past. A team of 4 with 2 survivors. The survivors stated they even looked at their cookie after returning from a jump and still went the wrong way, down a line they had been on a couple days previously; following the arrows when they should have been travelling against arrows for the 100 feet between the two jumps they took. They travelled upwards of 1000 feet before hitting a jump required to get to the exit, which they couldn't find.

They turned around, and headed back the full distance to their exit, and 3 of the 4 divers ran out of gas short of the exit.

We can pull accidents out all day. But the above accident was not any fault of permanent line marking; it was the result of complacency and the lack of paying attention to where they were. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to remember "jump, turn right after the jump [direction of cookie], 100 feet against arrows, jump right at snap & gap, leave". Yet they travelled over 1000 feet going with the arrows before they turned back.

An accident involving personally placed markers with jump spools coming off of it doesn't prove that the personally placed markers were the fault... it very well could be someone trusting in the unverified line and marker system and not paying attention to places where a possible jump line could exist when they are returning. If they were past the midpoint in a traverse or circuit, it's known that you travel back the way you came, and don't continue on to the closest exit, because you don't know what is between you and that exit... regardless of what direction the arrows point. Arrows are for reference, not to be blindly followed.

If your reference came across a jump line that wasn't marked, and chose to follow that instead of staying on the line... is that the fault of the jumper? What if that jump had a cookie on the jumpers exit side, which was against the permanent arrow placement and they chose to assume that was the direction, since the cookie placement indicates direction... is that the fault of the jumper?

My point? It's a jump that wasn't there when you came in. It -could- be an indication that you are going the wrong way. Or it could be a jump that was added after you passed. You make a mental note of it, and keep going until you find definitive proof you are going the wrong direction. cookie or not, arrow or not, it's a temporary placement that you've not personally verified. it's ignored.