OP
DiveLikeAMuppet
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I believe the training is take your own cookie but leave the jump obviously still in. That’s why tying into your own REM (one of the pictures above) is interesting.
Question Is GUE jump protocol unsafe in 0 viz??
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Getting to the jump, finding only 1 cookie (cos the other one fell off) and removing the jump will create much worse issues for divers still inside the cave. GUE protocol is to not remove any markers or lines if you're in zero Vis or separated, because that's the safest option.
Thanks
John
jadairiii
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Sorry for the confusion, I would never remove the jump, if the team was separated, regardless of vis, did not mean to infer that. But on a zero vis exit, if you leave your cookie, then the assumption buy the other team members is that you are still in the cave? Being the whole purpose of the cookie is to indicate how's still in the cave.
In a zero viz situation you leave both cookies in. That way your teammate (assuming a team of two) is able to properly locate the correct side of the exit. The teammate is expecting to feel for two cookies, so if he/she only feels one cookie - it may create a situation of real confusion as to if they are on the correct jump or not.
Pavao
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Either method cannot be positivity relied upon to indicate weather a team member has left or not in zero viz.
If we leave all cookies in place, then there’s no way to tell, that’s for sure.
If we remove our own cookies on exit, the most sure thing we can know is that there’s 1 less cookie, but that’s not a guarantee it isn’t there because a member has removed it on exit.
I believe I was taught option 2.
If we leave all cookies in place, then there’s no way to tell, that’s for sure.
If we remove our own cookies on exit, the most sure thing we can know is that there’s 1 less cookie, but that’s not a guarantee it isn’t there because a member has removed it on exit.
I believe I was taught option 2.
Pavao
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I think I’d like to look at it at a more practical perspective, who am I in the team, last guy in? That’d make me 1st guy out theoretically, we’d be exiting touching the line obviously, so when I get to jump, I’d wait there to the limits of my gas reserve, the next team member should bump into me, or I’d bump into a team member if I was not last guy in, and I chose my team members wisely 
The only point of the cookies is to indicate the direction to the exit. Anything else is basically irrelevant. Remove nothing if it's zero Vis. There's too much of a risk of messing it up.
Thanks
John
For additional context, if I'm 100% certain my experienced buddy is in front of me (using touch communication until he is on the jump line), I would not have any issue removing the jump, doing a "bump and go," and continuing the exit "as normal." However, if the situation is stressful or there is any uncertainty, you should not start removing lines or navigation aids.
Regarding the question of where to put cookies, you should place them at every line intersection. There is no real need for cookies if you jump from one "line start" to another "line start" (a gap, which is very uncommon where I dive in MX). If you jump from midline to a "line start," you should place cookies on the exit side of the midline jump.
Where it gets interesting is when you jump to a midline. Here, you will probably get different answers depending on the GUE divers or instructors you ask. Personally, I would use cookies on the jump line you installed if you jump to a midline, as you then create a line intersection. This approach is consistent with always marking the exit side of intersections. Others may not do this and instead use the spool with the double-ender pointing back home as a sort of "team marker." The latter option is what I learned during my initial GUE training, while the first option was taught in more advanced GUE classes.
What is conceptually easier to understand depends on whether you are a visual or procedural learner. Visually, I find it extremely easy to always add a cookie if I'm creating an intersection and therefore a navigational decision. However, if you're more of a procedural person, adding the cookie before you make the jump might be easier to remember and understand.
Both methods probably work pretty well, but I would argue that reducing the complexity of the navigation by keeping it 100% consistent at all intersections becomes increasingly important with more complex navigation.
Regarding the question of where to put cookies, you should place them at every line intersection. There is no real need for cookies if you jump from one "line start" to another "line start" (a gap, which is very uncommon where I dive in MX). If you jump from midline to a "line start," you should place cookies on the exit side of the midline jump.
Where it gets interesting is when you jump to a midline. Here, you will probably get different answers depending on the GUE divers or instructors you ask. Personally, I would use cookies on the jump line you installed if you jump to a midline, as you then create a line intersection. This approach is consistent with always marking the exit side of intersections. Others may not do this and instead use the spool with the double-ender pointing back home as a sort of "team marker." The latter option is what I learned during my initial GUE training, while the first option was taught in more advanced GUE classes.
What is conceptually easier to understand depends on whether you are a visual or procedural learner. Visually, I find it extremely easy to always add a cookie if I'm creating an intersection and therefore a navigational decision. However, if you're more of a procedural person, adding the cookie before you make the jump might be easier to remember and understand.
Both methods probably work pretty well, but I would argue that reducing the complexity of the navigation by keeping it 100% consistent at all intersections becomes increasingly important with more complex navigation.
halocline
Contributor
The cookies on the spool end are there for two reasons, as I see it.
1)To help with identifying the spool. If another team jumps to the same line and you’re feeling around two spools on a zero vis exit, it’s pretty nice to have the extra identifying markers.
2) As a communication in separated teams. That’s where it gets more complicated in zero vis. Yes, in a team separation with visibility, it would be nice to let your teammate know that you have headed for the exit by removing your cookie. But in zero vis, nobody is going to go back into the cave to look for a teammate. And….unless there’s been another mishap, the first step in a zero vis situation is to establish touch contact with your team on the line. So the situation of ‘lost teammate, zero vis, need to ID jump spool’ is a fairly dire one and in that case I’d prioritize the teammates’ ability to ID the spool above all else. Maybe leave a backup light on the line as a way of communicating you’ve exited.
The way I mark jumps in MX is with a personal REM to tie into, teammate leaves cookie on exit side, and both teammates drop cookies on the spool end. It’s the most clear and active way of marking the jump, and it works for end of line and mid line jumps. I drop a REM for gaps, too, so as not to confuse anyone else who might encounter the gap. They then can see, and feel, a clear personal navigation marking as opposed to simply two lines tied together.
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