Question Is GUE jump protocol unsafe in 0 viz??

[jadairiii]

But in zero vis, nobody is going to go back into the cave to look for a teammate.

If I had the gas, I would.

 

[halocline]

If I had the gas, I would.

That’s a nice sentiment, but in true zero vis, you have no way of determining your gas reserves. And how are you going to ‘look’ for a teammate? You’re just putting yourself in greater danger.

The way I was trained, zero vis protocols are pretty straightforward. First, get on the line facing the exit. Second, establish touch contact with your teammate. Both of these things would have been done before reaching a navigation point, unless the zero vis event happened at that precise spot. It doesn’t matter; the diver in front should wait, on the line, for his teammate to establish touch contact before proceeding anywhere.

At this fictional moment in time, there are only two possibilities; the diver in the rear is either going to establish touch contact or not. If he does, then you exit together. If not, then my training is that the diver in front should wait a specified amount of time, maybe 10 minutes, then proceed to the exit, leaving all markers and lines in place. This would have been an agreed upon protocol during the pre dive discussions.

I’m trying to imagine a scenario in which it would make sense to travel into a cave, away from the exit, in zero vis, to search for a teammate who has not followed the protocols in zero vis. One that pops into my mind is, maybe the teammate is entangled on the line and could not advance to establish touch contact. But this diver should be very close by unless there was team separation prior to the zero vis, in which case there was already a failure of teamwork prior to the zero vis situation. Heading back into a cave, blind, is just making a bad situation worse. But it is an interesting conversation.

 

[jadairiii]

That’s a nice sentiment, but in true zero vis, you have no way of determining your gas reserves.

I have been in "true zero" vis, more than once, and could still see my spg. Just light it and jam it up against your mask.

And barring any other calamity (which would change my answer) I pretty much know how much gas I have at any given time, since my SAC/RMV doesn't change that much. Unless I'm lobster diving, but then I could care less were my buddy is if I'm on the bugs!

 

[PfcAJ]

Actual zero vis is almost always localized.

And you knew how much gas you had before it went to **** so you’ve got an idea of how much you have.

If we’re really zeroed out I’ll hang out where it’s starting to clear a bit (say a body length of visibility) and chill. If homie doesn’t come out in a few, I’ll go hunting. Usually if you shield your light you can see your buddy’s glow through the suspended dirt.

 

[lermontov]

Ive been in 'zero vis' numerous times its unpleasant and unnerving but with good line laying its very manageable. Dealing with it is progressive as far as psychological comfort goes - one mans terror is another mans normal. The worst 'zero vis' ive encountered is stirred up oil -thats my bench mark and its zero in the truest definition of the word, light does not penetrate.
A well laid line is a an art form - something that we can constantly improve and get better at -personaly I think not enough focus is spent on this - when the dive turns to custard a well laid line is a your best friend - the last thing you need when your stressed is a sloppy laid line.

I’m trying to imagine a scenario in which it would make sense to travel into a cave, away from the exit, in zero vis, to search for a teammate who has not followed the protocols in zero vis. One that pops into my mind is, maybe the teammate is entangled on the line and could not advance to establish touch contact. But this diver should be very close by unless there was team separation prior to the zero vis, in which case there was already a failure of teamwork prior to the zero vis situation. Heading back into a cave, blind, is just making a bad situation worse. But it is an interesting conversation.

these decision are made in context of gas reserves and psychological stress- we can write all the protocols ad infinitum but in reality everyone has a point along the spectrum that they are on the verge of panic and just have to get out
Ive had divers turn around take off (without them telling me) and leave me behind due to them being stressed - ive had divers take out reels and left me in zero vis, and others have broken all the protocols that they have been trained for, it becomes every man fro himself - and the irony is its often a perceived threat based on stress and not a real one (once again going back to well laid line)

some caves like cocklebiddy in the Nullarbor in Australia is often dirty for the first 400m and so wide that you could literally swim in circles thinking you are making progress and stay in the same spot

The key is to have a plan

based on gas reserves you can stay and look for your buddy ( lost line or buddy search )
you can run a couple of spools out and tie off with directional arrows and hope your buddy will find one
you can clip a spare torch or strobe on a line, even if its a glow it might help
you can wait at a T and bang your tanks with a torch or double ender - this is somewhat directional and maybe more importantly if heard gives them hope, they can bang back if they can hear it -SOS signal is known by most

if you are waiting at a T or implementing some sort of search and you are pushing the reserves then youve done everything you can then you head out leave lines and cookie behind -likley if your buddy is still behind you hes not coming out unless hes exceptionally self controlled and if he sees an extra cookie ( the one you left) hell be also low on gas and hes certainly not going back to look for you - if you wait too long and he finds you in a stressed out state hes going to have been sucking through his gas and hell gobble up your as well

 

[rjack321]

I believe the training is take your own cookie but leave the jump obviously still in. That’s why tying into your own REM (one of the pictures above) is interesting.

Nobody else teaches or uses presence markers consistently except UTJ. This actually presents a problem in zero vis since you can spend quite a bit of time trying to figure out which of multiple presence markers is yours to remove it - and not knock anyone else's off. When you really just need to keep moving towards the exit.

Mingling directional markers and presence markers is also generally bad news. If you do use presence markers keep them distinct from directional markers.

GUE doesn't use presence markers and leaves every marker, jump and line in the cave when poo hits the fan. Cause they are all directional and have no presence meaning and anyone in the cave needs all the directional help available.

 

[VikingDives]

Nobody else teaches or uses presence markers consistently except UTJ. This actually presents a problem in zero vis since you can spend quite a bit of time trying to figure out which of multiple presence markers is yours to remove it - and not knock anyone else's off. When you really just need to keep moving towards the exit.

Mingling directional markers and presence markers is also generally bad news. If you do use presence markers keep them distinct from directional markers.

GUE doesn't use presence markers and leaves every marker, jump and line in the cave when poo hits the fan. Cause they are all directional and have no presence meaning and anyone in the cave needs all the directional help available.

UTJ does teach the use of individual markers, but the protocol is to leave everything in the case of an emergency (such as zero viz).

I fail to see how using a cookie that I can identify as my own, on a line, in zero viz is a problem.

 

[WantSomeScuba?]

I have been in "true zero" vis, more than once, and could still see my spg. Just light it and jam it up against your mask.

And barring any other calamity (which would change my answer) I pretty much know how much gas I have at any given time, since my SAC/RMV doesn't change that much. Unless I'm lobster diving, but then I could care less were my buddy is if I'm on the bugs!

It's not true zero-viz if you can read your SPG.

The actual "bad viz" I've experienced, in what I consider as "bad viz", I couldn't read my Perdix against my mask.

And until very, very recently, I had never had that experience in a cave. Just the ocean, funny enough. Until it was cave that we were installing the line in. Three weeks ago.

In the instance I'm referring to, without touch contact through the team, you were exiting blind and solo. Breakdown of team cohesion meant you're flying solo, which we didnt. But if it had happened, I wouldn't have exactly been pissed at anyone. And going back would have provided no help to any team member.

If we had an issue, would I go back? Yep. Every time. Unti I was breaking safe emergency gas planning, I would go back.

Would it do anything in actual no-viz?

Nope. I'd be doing it because I could only live with myself if I did what I could in that situation. Which is next to nothing, if it's no-viz.

The correct answer to this very, very broad hypothetical is "don't make decisions that lead to a situation where you have to make this type of decision."

This does not concern conversations regarding grabbing lobster. Bugs is bugs and that conversation should only be had within the community of people who understand seeing the biggest freaking lobster they've ever seen, just a bit outside their reach.

I'm only being half-sarcastic. I get it. Specifically, the "it" here is lobsters.

 

[Fat old english bloke]

I have been in "true zero" vis, more than once, and could still see my spg. Just light it and jam it up against your mask.

I have been in "true zero" vis, more than once, and could still see my spg. Just light it and jam it up against your mask.

And barring any other calamity (which would change my answer) I pretty much know how much gas I have at any given time, since my SAC/RMV doesn't change that much. Unless I'm lobster diving, but then I could care less were my buddy is if I'm on the bugs!

And barring any other calamity (which would change my answer) I pretty much know how much gas I have at any given time, since my SAC/RMV doesn't change that much. Unless I'm lobster diving, but then I could care less wermy buddy is if I'm on the bugs!

Apologies for the quote/reply mess, can’t see a way to abandon/edit from my phone so it’s going to remain.

Anyway, having been in zero vis a handful of times there have been a number of occasions whereby I couldn’t read my SPG.

On one it was at the start of the dive, and the flow was so great that I couldn’t pull myself in whilst tracing the line with a hand - this, combined with the fact that I would have had no idea as to my pressures, lead to it being aborted.

Another that sticks in mind was due to the fact that I was in liquid mud, pretty much, and didn’t even get a nice orange glow from my head torch, it was just black. Being able to actually see my SPG was almost irrelevant though, as I was physically unable to lift it to my face or move my head to look at it.

 

[rjack321]

I fail to see how using a cookie that I can identify as my own, on a line, in zero viz is a problem.

It's generally not. Until there are a whole slew of cookies and REMs and arrows at some intersection with multiple jumps lines in bad vis. At that point more markers ("presence" or otherwise) isn't really helpful to anyone.

On the other hand, I can't think of single incident where "over dropping" REMs or cookies caused a fatality. So this is more of an academic than genuine risk issue.