Let The revolution Begin!

[GDI]

-
GDI wrote that quality will outsell quantity.
I suggest he consider the following two quotes:

"How do we make money in America? Volume, volume, volume"
-David Letterman

"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence
of the buying public" - P.T. Barnum

Hey Dweeb, nice rant You pretty much hit on everyone. BUT then lets look at it like this. Quality vs Quantity. Volume Volume Volume - David Letterman
What ever happened to good ol' American Quality... Henry Ford's Model T and later high selling model cars like the Mustang were surpassed by the Volkswagen Beetle in less than 20 years of production. Would you suggest that the VW beetle or Toyota Camry for that matter are of lessor quality than a Ford? Consumers suggest they are not. Two of the highest selling cars in world history and many of the originals are still on the road today. And today Lexus, Porche and BMW are selling as much as GM, Ford and Mercedes owned Chyrsler. And they follow the very same production principles of volume manufacturing established by Henry Ford. Yet the quality of a Lexus, BMW or Porche exceed that of a Ford (based on consumer reports)
People want quality but they want to pay less for it, and likewise retail people want profit, so they try to give less for more. The real question is what do you want to pay? What do you want to profit? Or as our European friends have shown us, pride in craftsmanship is worth a little less profit but then profit will be made up none the less.

"Quality with high standards is possible and still affordable when produced in volume" Gottlieb Daimler 1890 One of the two Founders of Mercedes Benz (Karl Benz the other founder)

Now P.T. Barnum's statement: Yes the proof here is all the fast ways to loose weight schemes that are selling on our Japanese made T. V. 's
Or
Maybe we can look at the Harley Davidson's vs the HOG wanna be's. American Quality made in Volume or a overpriced highly sought after toy?

As someone else noted in a thread you can look at two houses for sell. One 3000 sq ft not so good condition, another 2000 sq ft excellent condition. Same Price. People will most likely buy the 3000 sq ft house because it is bigger and they believe they will get more for their money. That is of course until they start paying all the repair bills now they know their purchase was not so good. Now by their word of mouth to their friends thay will suggest to look at the higher quality home.

"We don't need to be the biggest, just the Best" Lee Iacoca CEO Chrysler Corp. ( Sorry for the Spelling of his Name)

I teach diving for a living full time, not retail, just instruction so I rely on quality and word of mouth as my advertisement. Many of my students come to me as referrals from other students and even students who were instructed by other instructors refer their friends to me when they see how much time and effort I put into each student. When they see how much content I give each student and to what extent I work with them. This I would like to think is quality and quality will outsell mere quantity and thus when tempered correctly will produce a higher volume in the end.

 

[GDI]

DIR seems very much geared to techniques for technical cave diving, with equipment designed for that environment. Is there anything of similar standards but for recreational Open Water diving?

That is the basis of what we are discussing here, lets correct it at the OW Level

 

[rjens]

If you are serious about this, let me provide some free market research from the point of view of a relative newbie diver.

I signed up for my OW class with one goal, to enjoy a few tropical reef dives with 5 kids (ages 13-20) while on vacation in Maui. Getting a C card was a bonus... We had a great time with a great instructor and enjoyed 3 wonderful days and 6 dives on airport beach in Maui. It was perfect, and significantly exceeded my expectations.

There is no way that I would have paid for a comprehensive OW course before going on vacation. I simply didn't understand the need for it at the time, it didn’t meet my goals, and I would have assumed it was just a suburban yuppie dive shop ripping off folks that didn’t know any better.

But diving blew me away, and unexpectedly I was hooked. After I got home I started looking into diving locally. Specifically I looked into additional training. What I was (and still am) looking for is a class that has as its express purpose training divers to be better divers – specifically safer divers.

I understand the desire to fix OW, but you would have better results if you aimed the course at the peoplen that wants help (like me). The majority of potential divers don’t understand the need for the additional effort, or the extra costs associated with the course you are proposing. They don’t value what you are offering, they don’t get it... yet – using GDI’s car metaphor You’re building a Tucker…

However, if you offered the similar course as a true AOW (not just a card showing you have done a night and deep dive) your potential customer would be folks that are already hooked, and are ready to pay for a class to help them become a better/safer diver.

Just me rambling again…. thanks for noticing...

RJ

 

[grazie42]

Dweeb once bubbled...

What planet is this on?...The PRACTICED industry standard is an OW card to dive, and maybe, sometimes, a Nitrox card to get a mix fill.

This MIGHT be the case in the US...I´ve dived in several locations in Sweden, the canary islands (Spain) and in the Red Sea (Egypt) and in ALL of these places I´ve been required to present both C-card and logbook to "prove" my qualifications for the kind of diving I was about to do...Live-aboards in Egypt do NOT accept (as a rule, there will always be some "bad apples") anything less than AOW. So to answer your question the planet is earth (at least the european and asian parts of it).

RJENS once bubbled...

...a true AOW (not just a card showing you have done a night and deep dive)

My understanding is that UW-navigation was a required part of AOW (PADI). My point is that IF it is, you will learn how to navigate as well, which wouldn´t be a bad thing since most people prefer to come out of the water where they went in, or if they don´t they want to be confident that they dont...I´m pretty sure that UW is a required part, and even if it isn´t your instructur should be able to accomadate you if you ask for it...

To my mind AOW was, and is, worth the 150$ I spent on it and would be even if LDS and others didnt REQUIRE it for more "advanced" dives...

Just my 2 cents...

 

[MikeFerrara]

If you are serious about this, let me provide some free market research from the point of view of a relative newbie diver.

I signed up for my OW class with one goal, to enjoy a few tropical reef dives with 5 kids (ages 13-20) while on vacation in Maui. Getting a C card was a bonus... We had a great time with a great instructor and enjoyed 3 wonderful days and 6 dives on airport beach in Maui. It was perfect, and significantly exceeded my expectations.

There is no way that I would have paid for a comprehensive OW course before going on vacation. I simply didn't understand the need for it at the time, it didn’t meet my goals, and I would have assumed it was just a suburban yuppie dive shop ripping off folks that didn’t know any better.

But diving blew me away, and unexpectedly I was hooked. After I got home I started looking into diving locally. Specifically I looked into additional training. What I was (and still am) looking for is a class that has as its express purpose training divers to be better divers – specifically safer divers.

I understand the desire to fix OW, but you would have better results if you aimed the course at the peoplen that wants help (like me). The majority of potential divers don’t understand the need for the additional effort, or the extra costs associated with the course you are proposing. They don’t value what you are offering, they don’t get it... yet – using GDI’s car metaphor You’re building a Tucker…

However, if you offered the similar course as a true AOW (not just a card showing you have done a night and deep dive) your potential customer would be folks that are already hooked, and are ready to pay for a class to help them become a better/safer diver.

Just me rambling again…. thanks for noticing...

RJ

Good point. What you say mirrors my experience and what I see exactly.

The market for DIRF is also a good example. The masses want a $99 class but they'll pay $300 plus instructor expenses and books for 4 dives and some lecture to find out how it should be done. These are the divers who realize the value and that's who you have to market to. Until recently they didn't even get a card. I had trouble getting $300 for an open water class. That's supplying books, equipment, air and over 40 hours of my time and you can bet that I never got any one to pay my expenses.

I think there's room in that market for one more.

 

[GDI]

GDI’s car metaphor You’re building a Tucker…

RJ

A Tucker That could be? But Tucker did influence the other car companies to make some changes to better their quality.

 

[GDI]

Good point. What you say mirrors my experience and what I see exactly.

The market for DIRF is also a good example. The masses want a $99 class but they'll pay $300 plus instructor expenses and books for 4 dives and some lecture to find out how it should be done. These are the divers who realize the value and that's who you have to market to. Until recently they didn't even get a card. I had trouble getting $300 for an open water class. That's supplying books, equipment, air and over 40 hours of my time and you can bet that I never got any one to pay my expenses.

I think there's room in that market for one more.

This is a problem with the retail side of the industry. There is such a wide range of pricing that people who want to learn really can't get a feel for the value/quality of the class they want. People want quality but they want it cheap. Some want it fast. Some shop around some do not.There will always be those who will take the less expensive route, and you will get what you pay for. On the other hand more expensive doesn't mean better. So how do we fix this? Price fixing is illegal. Retail Shops tend to pay instructors rediculous money for instruction so why would the instructor feel they need to put forth the better instruction quality or time needed to correctly teach. I don't want to be unionized however we can take a lesson from the unions. The value of a class can be stabilized perhaps if all instructors worked from a "scale".This would be a big problem for retailers because they would have to pay the instructor a guaranteed minimum. Not the $25-$35 per head without expenses, how demeaning and devalued this is. The instructor would need to produce to justify the scale. My thoughts on this point come from looking at various unversities and college's tuitions. The cost range from one to the other is very close. Yes one college is better than another but the costs are close from one to another. I as a instructor can easily see the value in the OW class at $300.00, but you are right the newbie diver wanna be does not and I need to sell that to him/her. I hate the puppy mill dive shops that crank out low quality divers at high rates on the $99 class. I have no problem with DSD/ resort programs they have a place but I give no credit for certification from them. These $99 classes cause me more work at the AOW and higher levels then I think and feel I need to put forward, but I will make the effort because I care.Through my experience I have come to expect less quality from a $99 student. I feel we need to take the time at the base entry level program (OW Diver) and that means a resonable price for a quality course. The book and materials costs for a shop or a individual instructor aren't that different that the class could not be priced similar. The shops need to pay instructors better, instructors need to teach better. Can an agency a new agency, any agency set a scale for it's instructors, yes why not it's not price fixing. Will shops agree to it considering their overhead? Maybe, Maybe not?

 

[MikeFerrara]

If I ran an agency the standards would require more from the instructor and student. The price would likely need to be higher.

Such an agency likely wouldn't get much business though because you would still have cheap certs available. That's why I would follow the lead of GUE and start by offering better training to the divers who were already looking for it. Once a reputation is established you could then start to fill entry level classes.

I have given up the idea of fixing the existing system. The industry doesn't concede that anything needs changing and they don't want or deserve my efforts.

One agency and I have completely parted ways. They insist that certain things aren't important at the recreational level and display a disregard for them at the pro and tech levels also and I think it's vital at all levels. It's a total and complete incompatability of phylosophy at the most basic level. I think they are completely clueless and I have no interest in helping them fix their crap classes. While I would still like to teach I won't stand for having their name and mine on the same card.

IMO, we need an alternative to the existing system as apposed to patches for it. It can't and won't change because they like it the way it is. Instructors might be willing to work cheap but the agency gets the price they want for the book, the card and the instructor dues and the manufacturers get the price they want for their equipment. The cheaper instructors work the more the agencies and the manufacturers make. Why would they change anything? It's all working exactly as they intend for it to work.

 

[TechBlue]

I was having a discussion with a friend pretty much about the status of dive retail operations accross the board, whoever is to blame whether it is the agencies or the shops who started the price wars and now can only offer the $99 dollar specials to get students, well they created the monster and now they are stuck with it and that is both unfortunate and sad for the student and the store owners. I agree with most of what has been discussed on this thread but infortunately I don't see how you get to pre-educate the newbie so they can make an intelligent choice-really sad thing about it is that people spend $100's of dollars without a thought on golf and tennis lessons but will nickel and dime about a scuba lesson, then jump into the ocean and put their lives into somebodies hands without a thought of the consequences. Makes you wonder who developed this marketing strategy doesn't it?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I was having a discussion with a friend pretty much about the status of dive retail operations accross the board, whoever is to blame whether it is the agencies or the shops who started the price wars and now can only offer the $99 dollar specials to get students, well they created the monster and now they are stuck with it and that is both unfortunate and sad for the student and the store owners. I agree with most of what has been discussed on this thread but infortunately I don't see how you get to pre-educate the newbie so they can make an intelligent choice-really sad thing about it is that people spend $100's of dollars without a thought on golf and tennis lessons but will nickel and dime about a scuba lesson, then jump into the ocean and put their lives into somebodies hands without a thought of the consequences. Makes you wonder who developed this marketing strategy doesn't it?

We know exactly who created it. Don't we?