Let The revolution Begin!

[airraider1]

Chien,

I agree completely. You just don't need a PHD to have some fun and be safe with scuba.

 

[Genesis]

I couldn't agree more about bouyancy and trim. My point is merely that it takes some practice. Do I really need 10-12 dives to practice this simple skill with an instructor before I get certified? I'll ask again. Did you have all the skills you advocate for passing your OW class when you were certified? If not, was it really that important?

No, I did not. Yes, it really was that important.

I got lucky. On my first OW dive after certification, on a cattle boat with a "pick me up" buddy (who was worse than useless, by the way) I was hanging on the anchor line doing my safety stop when a guy who I never saw lost buoyancy control above me and crashed into me from behind, blowing my mask clear off my face.

I was fortunately able to catch the strap as it was departing, and keep it from being lost to the deep. I learned that I could swear through a regulator that day.

Why do I say "I got lucky"? Because I had poor trim and not-so-hot buoyancy control. I was on the anchor line doing my safety stop because it was what I needed to have in order to complete my stop and stay where I wanted to. Had I been blown OFF THE LINE I would have been hosed.

COMPLETELY, 100%, ABSOLUTELY SCREWED.

In all probability I would have gone straight to the bottom before I could figure out what was going on or get the mask back on my face and cleared. IF I did not suffer a serious injury from the rapid decent, or immediately paniced and hit the inflator (making a Polaris out of myself) I would have had a second problem, as I'm quite sure my gas situation would have been critical by then - remember, I was at the end of the dive and on my safety stop when this happened!

Now today, such an event wouldn't happen. Why? Because I wouldn't be on the line to get crashed into. I've learned to hang off the line, neutral, on my stops. Could I do it when I certified? No. Was it an essential skill? Yes. Did I avoid serious injury or worse by nothing more than fate? Yes. If I had my mask blown off my face now would I be hosed? No; I'd just put it back on, and likely wouldn't have changed position in the water much.

I recognize this. But it was not until I had about 20-30 dives under my belt that I truly "got it".

Sure it would have been great to be proficient at EVERYTHING when I first got certified. The fact that I wasn't (I doubt you were either) didn't make me unsafe. I am sure I will never be the diver you are but I'm just not as serious about it as you. SAFETY IS SERIOUS and diving is fun. You can be safe and have fun with scuba long before you could pass your OW certification.

Only until and unless something goes wrong. If it does before you build that proficiency, you will either be scared out of diving again or you may be injured - or worse.

About 20 dives AFTER I certified, I "lost" the upline. My fault - bad navigation on a reef. I did not (yet) know how to shoot a bag. nor even have one, but I did know how to make a horizontal ascent and keep things under control. I could not hold a stop to a foot or so without a reference other than my gauge, but I could hold it to three or four.

I ascended, did my stop, and made the surface swim back to the boat. It was a PITA, and the exertion taught me why you don't want to have poor navigation skills. I subsequently improved significantly on them and now don't have much of a problem with that.

If that same event had happened on Post-certification dive #1, I might have gotten hurt or badly frightened by the experience and never dove again.

Next example. This last summer, two people I am close to certified. I was diving with them (in the same water at the same time) but not with the group, per-se. One of them, on her last certification dive, was "parked" by the instructor along with two other students on the anchor line while he went to pull it. The vis wasn't great - maybe 10-15'. He didn't pay attention to what he was doing or where he parked them. In fact, they were about 10' from a pillar on the wreck, around which the anchor line wrapped. When he pulled the anchor, the students were "stripped off" as the line passed the post.

One by one they came "free" into the water with nothing to grab onto. None of them had the ability to maintain neutral buoyancy. One of them grabbed my friend and the other student and, in a nearly full-on panic, began to bolt for the surface.

I managed to get to my friend and attach myself to her fin, dumped my wing, and kept them from doing a Polaris. Fortunately none of the three hit their inflators or I would have had to let them go. About this time the instructor showed back up and "took over."

Now, that individual today dives with me with some frequency. She's still learning, and has quite a ways to go on trim and buoyancy. Is she "safe" in the water? No. Do I mind being her "backup"? No. Will we (once the water warms up again!) be spending a LOT of time on this? Yep. Will she "get it"? Sure - she understands what she needs to learn - it just wasn't taught in class. You can't learn what is not set forth to be important and emphasized!

Take yourself when you started diving and got your OW card. If you had the "rototiller" thing going like most people what would you have done if you came back to where you thought the anchor line was and it was simply missing? You know you should make a 3 minute safety stop at 15' - can you make that ascent, and hold that position, for 3 minutes without something to hang onto? Can you do it comfortably? Or would things have gotten more than a bit hairy?

That's where the problem is - this kind of stuff is so routine that it darn well ought to be able to be handled BEFORE you get an "OW" card.

 

[airraider1]

"Not so hot bouyancy" and you were lucky you didn't go straight to the bottom?
That sounds like completely negative bouyancy to me. If that was the level of your bouyancy control after being certified you are right that's a huge problem.
As far as the other stories you must be right about a lot of instructors not being competent. If you panic just because you don't have something to hang onto and you are breathing and wearing a bc you've got problems. Perfect neutral bouyancy no (which is what I thought you meant originally). Not having any control of your bouyancy whatsoever you're exactly right. Shouldn't be certified. The point of my post is that yes BASIC skills are important to safety.
Night diving, dry suit, navigation skills that can be taught and learned later.

 

[Genesis]

"Not so hot bouyancy" and you were lucky you didn't go straight to the bottom?
That sounds like completely negative bouyancy to me. If that was the level of your bouyancy control after being certified you are right that's a huge problem.

I was all over the place. Most new divers are. Why? They're not taught trim at all and very little emphasis is placed on buoyancy control. You do your skills on your knees, you do ascents/decents vertically. How are you supposed to develop buoyancy control and trim UNLESS you go quiescent in the water and actually DO IT? You can't.

Negative, positive, I don't know which way I would have gone. I do know that I needed the line to make the ascent and keep it in control. There's no way I was perfectly neutral which, at the instant my mask got blown off, was what mattered. If I had lost the line as well, I would have gone one way or the other, guaranteed. Either would have been ugly.

It only takes one incident like that which goes bad for most new divers to give up. Most people don't like seeing their life flash before their eyes.

As far as the other stories you must be right about a lot of instructors not being competent. If you panic just because you don't have something to hang onto and you are breathing and wearing a bc you've got problems. Perfect neutral bouyancy no (which is what I thought you meant originally). Not having any control of your bouyancy whatsoever you're exactly right. Shouldn't be certified. The point of my post is that yes BASIC skills are important to safety.
Night diving, dry suit, navigation skills that can be taught and learned later.

Night diving is not much different than day diving in limited visability, really. Limited vis is limited vis. It only takes one person to hit the bottom and you just created limited vis is most places (any with a mud bottom!)

Drysuit diving is inherently a safety issue if you're not in tropical water. Being cold is not conducive to clear thinking. If you're thinking about being cold, you're not paying attention to other things. Unless ALL you diving will be in water over 70F, there's no sense in not learning how to dive dry right from the outset.

 

[airraider1]

BTW my first OW dive after certification I did do my ascent by myself with my safety stop for 3 minutes. I hovered between 12-15' . The DM didn't buddy anyone up and I had a crappy rental reg and a wetsuit that was 2 sizes too small. The Dive operator told me it was supposed to be tight. Once we got to depth 95' I went through 1500 psi real quick trying to suck air in. When it was time to start my ascent I had drifted way out in front of the group and the DM
(Playacar) I couldn't get anyone's attention because they were checking out a turtle. I was perfectly comfortable doing my ascent with the skills I learned in OW certification. The rental gear I had didn't have a computer just an analog gauge and my Citizen watch. Since it was a drift dive the boat operator was fairly close when I got to the surface and saw me so I didn't have to swim far.
I feel the skills I learned were adequate. Maybe my experience is different or maybe I had a damn good instructor because the skills you mention are very basic and in my opinion very easy to learn. I've learned a lot since then but the basic safety skills are still the most important to me.

 

[samsp]

The course outlined in this thread is a great course, its a thourough course and is probably what is needed for a Real open water certification. But you also have to look at economics. What PADI has done (for better or worse is debatable) is created an OW certification that is sufficient to get people into the water and diving. The problem though is that at the end, most students probably have sufficient knowlege to be able to go down safely on dives with an instructor/Dive master. If however there are problems, they are not going to have the experience/knowlege to solve them. I don't think its sufficient to be able to walk into a dive shop, buy all the equipment, get some tanks filled and drop to 60'.

I think we need the courses that are the current OW standard, as they provide a basic set of skills, within an attainable time/budget. You can go on a weeks vacation, spend 4 days of it taking the course and get a diving experience. That is what is really needed to know if you like diving / can handle it / want to do more.

What needs to change is the expectation as to what you can do with the certification you have recieved. I think the basic OW (as its currently taught/specified) should not be considered sufficient to go off diving with a (similarly trained) buddy. There should be more restructions as to diving with somebody better trained, either as a buddy or as a group, say six max, with an instructor. This would then meet the needs of resort divers who want to be able to dive on their vacations without having to go through the time in the classroom each vacation.

So that would mean that there would need to be more rigerous standards for "unsupervised" divers. The course outlined in this thread would meet that need. Its kind of what the AOW should be. The AOW may be that, but wasn't where I was taught. It sounds like this is somewhat happening in that some boats are requiring AOW/Nitrox to go diving. It could be policed that way, and also by the filling centers requiring more certification to get a tank filled.

Another requirement could be to have a temperature aspect to the certification. If you certify in warm water, the C card would specify that, and you would again have restrictions based on that. A new cert could be gained by taking a course in the appropriate waters, this could be offered by the LDS for somebody who learned in warm waters. This would be similar to driving licenses in the UK, if you take the test in an automatic, you license is endorsed as such and its illegal to drive a stick (manual transmission).

I think this scheme would work for both the resorts and the LDS. The resorts could get people diving, and have something to show for it, but it would also not be giving away the keys to the castle. The LDS that offers a longer, more thorough course can grant the higher certification. They can also do it in stages so that customers are not put off by sticker/commitment cost. It would also mean that instructors would have additional customers for supervised dives. Divers who want to learn more would have a path to follow, and get some good education/experience. The additional training could cover more theory as well, and therefore more class time - for example how to plan dives, how a reg works etc. The existing referral mechanism could be extended for this kind of course, so resort divers who live in colder areas could do the bookwork with the LDS and the dives in the Bahamas, and have the warm water cert. If they then want to dive locally, they could take the cold water conversion.

The only problem would be how to introduce this into the existing mix. One way would be to grandfather in a test for the new Advanced certification that could be taken by existing divers to prove their attainment of that level. The new level could be introduced, and divers given a year to take the test before the new restrictions apply.

 

[airraider1]

Genesis,

I was writing my post as you were writing your last one. Look I'm not trying to argue with you at all. I've been reading your posts for a long time and I have NEVER read anything that you posted that I didn't think was right. I'm sure your diving experience dwarfs mine by comparison. I just think as you said in your post that these skills are SO basic that I can't believe they aren't being taught.
All of my classes have been with the same LDS and I guess I'm lucky. They are heavily emphasized.

 

[Genesis]

Remember guys - its a certification, not a license.

You do not want a "license", although there are a LOT of places (boats, caves, etc) that are hell-bent on treating that card as if it was.

The more this expands, the worst it gets for all of us. You do not want this!

 

[RiverRat]

I was all over the place. Most new divers are. Why? They're not taught trim at all and very little emphasis is placed on buoyancy control. You do your skills on your knees, you do ascents/decents vertically. How are you supposed to develop buoyancy control and trim UNLESS you go quiescent in the water and actually DO IT? You can't.

Hey Genesis, as a new diver with only 20 logged dives right after OW, AOW and Nitrox certs., I think you're onto something. Most will agree OW and AOW is just the beginning and one needs more logged dives to gain experience, but there is always room for improvement in any training program I'm sure. Some would argue getting somes dives in after OW before going to AOW, others say go right to AOW. For me, I just wanted to get in some more dives and going right into AOW (with Nitrox) worked out well for me. I had a very good instructor, very thorough and took time out to answer any and all questions pertaining to diving. I do agree though that buoyancy control and trim were not "taught" very well. Mentioned, but not taught. Basic weight checks were all I remember. The Peak Performance Buoyancy dive was a waste. I was in a 7mm, hood, gloves, rental BC (I'm a BP/W convert now) and had 28# lead on the belt. I looked like the Concorde on takeoff. I tried my best but in the back of my mind I just wanted to blow through this dive. Another example was on the night dive (great dive, had a blast, don't get me wrong) when my buddy Charlie just went "negative" and "disappeared" into the void while me, him and the instructor were hanging on a line. She dove down to "rescue" him while I stayed on the line. He was pretty overweight and carrying a ton of lead. Needless to say he had more problems than I did with trim and weighting. Luckily for me I blew off the shop when they tried to stick me in a Scubapro Classic. If I had bought the jacket would someone there been able to trim me out? I doubt it. They just wanted to push the jacket. That's part of the problem. Sales and Instructors need to work TOGETHER to trim out a diver. The best thing I did was to read up on BP/W configurations (thanks SeaJay!) and after chatting with many folks from this board decided on a FredT BP and Oxycheq wing. After reading Fred's buoyancy calculation document included with his order I really started to understand the concept of diving neutral and getting the weight spread out over my back. Against advise from the LDS folks I dove this rig for the first time in Cayman a few weeks ago. I was told I would practically drown at the surface if I did not dive doubles. BS! I was a little nervous but my first giant stride proved that was a myth. Popped up straight as an arrow, no squeeze, very comfy! I started heavy at 15# but after several dives I was down to 3# lead on the belt! I was blown away! My trim dead on, my SAC improved big time after getting to neutral. What a feeling as I'm sure you know, when you "nail" neutral buoyancy! You can just feel it. Breathe out and sink, breathe in and rise. My instructor stated during AOW class that she felt AOW was really OW-2, and continuation of OW training and I sort of agree. The Nitrox course upfront was good as it taught me much more about gas theory, management etc. I think teaching trim and buoyancy DEFINATELY needs to come into play BEFORE a peak performance buoyancy class and probably not a bad idea somewhere in OW but before AOW. I had several "runaway" ascents during OW-AOW training probably due to weighting issues and being down to 500 psi. and not venting air from the BC in time. Luckily we trained in 35 ffw. Still, I didn't feel to comfy floating to the top especially at that level of training. I was lucky in that Scubaboard really helped me get trimmed out during my early training, but I really feel bad for quite a few other divers out there that are probably struggling needlessly because they haven't been taught how to get trim, neutral and properly weighted. From what I've heard a quite a few recreational divers are diving overweighted all the time.
Best of luck if you persue this........

 

[MikeFerrara]

The course outlined in this thread is a great course, its a thourough course and is probably what is needed for a Real open water certification. But you also have to look at economics. What PADI has done (for better or worse is debatable) is created an OW certification that is sufficient to get people into the water and diving. The problem though is that at the end, most students probably have sufficient knowlege to be able to go down safely on dives with an instructor/Dive master. If however there are problems, they are not going to have the experience/knowlege to solve them. I don't think its sufficient to be able to walk into a dive shop, buy all the equipment, get some tanks filled and drop to 60'.

But the certification says that you're qualified to dive independantly.

I think we need the courses that are the current OW standard, as they provide a basic set of skills, within an attainable time/budget. You can go on a weeks vacation, spend 4 days of it taking the course and get a diving experience. That is what is really needed to know if you like diving / can handle it / want to do more.

I disagree. As an instructor I don't have to change the definition of diver to meet time or budget demands. I need to make sure my students have basic skills when I turn the loose. It takes whatever time it takes and costs what it costs. The current courses don't let some one find out if they like diving or not because crawling on the bottom or bouncing back and forth between the bottom and the surface isn't diving.

What needs to change is the expectation as to what you can do with the certification you have recieved. I think the basic OW (as its currently taught/specified) should not be considered sufficient to go off diving with a (similarly trained) buddy. There should be more restructions as to diving with somebody better trained, either as a buddy or as a group, say six max, with an instructor. This would then meet the needs of resort divers who want to be able to dive on their vacations without having to go through the time in the classroom each vacation.

I disagree again. There should be no restrictions at all. We should teach people how to dive and prepare them to make their own decissions. If they need a baby sitter they should still be in class because many of the baby sitters can't dive for crap and you don't want to rely on them.

As a diver and instructor I know what basic skills are required to be able to control a dive. I don't think diving at a resort requires less. In fact, given the nature of some of the trust-me-dives people do following a divemaster they mey need more. There are divers and non-divers. I don't recognize a resort diver as a seperate catagory.

So that would mean that there would need to be more rigerous standards for "unsupervised" divers. The course outlined in this thread would meet that need. Its kind of what the AOW should be. The AOW may be that, but wasn't where I was taught. It sounds like this is somewhat happening in that some boats are requiring AOW/Nitrox to go diving. It could be policed that way, and also by the filling centers requiring more certification to get a tank filled.

You want police because people are too incompetant to police themselves? Who gets them to work in the morning? The OW class claims to qualify a diver to dive in conditions as good or better than those they were trained in. That's what it should do. We already have pre-entry level certs that require a supervisor. Basic skills need to be learned in OW because that's the class that makes you a diver. AOW is just applying those skills to a wider range of environments. An OW diver on a 30 ft reef needs the same phisical skills as a AOW diver at 100 ft.

The flaw in this system is we turn out OW diver without basic skills and then we take them to 100 ft in an AOW class without those skills and that can't possible teach anything and may get some one hurt and I know at least two of those just this past season.

Another requirement could be to have a temperature aspect to the certification. If you certify in warm water, the C card would specify that, and you would again have restrictions based on that. A new cert could be gained by taking a course in the appropriate waters, this could be offered by the LDS for somebody who learned in warm waters. This would be similar to driving licenses in the UK, if you take the test in an automatic, you license is endorsed as such and its illegal to drive a stick (manual transmission).

We could have a course for sunny days and one for cloudy days and...Sorry but forget the resort baby sitting stuff for a moment. A diver gets certified and then goes out to a local lake or beach to do a dive. Who's going to be standing there to feel the water and look at their card to see if they're qualified for the temperature or not?

I think this scheme would work for both the resorts and the LDS. The resorts could get people diving, and have something to show for it, but it would also not be giving away the keys to the castle. The LDS that offers a longer, more thorough course can grant the higher certification. They can also do it in stages so that customers are not put off by sticker/commitment cost. It would also mean that instructors would have additional customers for supervised dives. Divers who want to learn more would have a path to follow, and get some good education/experience. The additional training could cover more theory as well, and therefore more class time - for example how to plan dives, how a reg works etc. The existing referral mechanism could be extended for this kind of course, so resort divers who live in colder areas could do the bookwork with the LDS and the dives in the Bahamas, and have the warm water cert. If they then want to dive locally, they could take the cold water conversion.

The only problem would be how to introduce this into the existing mix. One way would be to grandfather in a test for the new Advanced certification that could be taken by existing divers to prove their attainment of that level. The new level could be introduced, and divers given a year to take the test before the new restrictions apply.

IMO, what you've described is what we have and it's been designed specifically with resorts in mind. A million courses for a million things and it's cheap. Of course very few can dive well even after taking all the classes. Many people don't feel comfortable enough to dive without their resort baby sitter.

Learning to dive takes some effort and can cost some money. If that puts some one off then so be it.

I started my instructor life being taught to get people into diving with free samples and how to make the class fast and affordable. I was also taught that they would pick up the finer points in some future class. A few years of experience taught me that it's BS. The important things that aren't done in OW aren't introduced in any class. The whole system of some agencies is geared for divers who will dive once a year at a resort with a baby sitter.
I call it underwater tourism not diving. If some one wants to be an underwater tourist they can go to a underwater tour guide. I teach diving. I teach my student not to rely on a baby sitter. We call them trust me dives and we teach students to be very leary of them.

And again...who is going to administer all these restrictions on the tens of thousands of square miles of river, lake, quarry and thousands of miles of coast we have in this country alone? Maybe we could post a dive cop every hundred yards or so any place there's water. Maybe when you do to a shop for a fill you could present a signed note from your mother that you are going to dive the right temperature water. Oops...what if a diver buys their own compressor or has a freind that has one?

I say just teach them to dive and be done with it.