Latest ScubaLabs reg test - huh?

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Have you ever used AI to record actual consumption data during real dives and really looked at what short-term RMVs can really be? What is the basis for thinking that an ordinary fat sack, bigger guy diver couldn't sustain a 3.0 for a few minutes?
 
@stuartv fair enough. I marched tuba thru college and still play bagpipes and a variety of woodwinds so my breathing capacity is quite high. Just surprised to see anything up and around 2cfm unless it is for a VERY short time i.e. on initial descent when inflating wing/drysuit/taking a big breath to arrest ascent. If it is less than a minute that may be it or it is just a rapid response.

The important thing about their ratings though is that they don't publish the curves. I value inhalation resistance much more than exhalation resistance and I want to see the actual breathing curves. I know what the curve looks like for my regulators and I am happy that their inhalation curve is flat regardless of what they are being subjected to but it is the exhalation that increases and causes them to be dinged. On the Xstream, a simple increase in exhalation diaphragm would allow it to blow that test out of the water but it would come at a large case size and have some other downsides.
 
@scubadada I commented that I believe the test rig may be optimized for commercial diving where the diver is vertical in the water column. In scuba that is not the case so the regs will be designed for normal diver orientation which is closer to 45* vs. 90. Having the reg in that orientation will increase both inhale and exhale resistance.

@stuartv is it possible you were sharing air with someone for any portion of those dives? If not, could you have had the wrong tank size in the computer?
No offense, but I'd be surprised if you were in good enough shape to maintain a 1.3+cfm SAC rate for 20 mins without passing out.

Oh, of note for anyone that is curious. Scubalab is reporting the sum of inhale+exhale for total work of breathing. Not showing the curves is a bit unfortunate. If you look at the certified ANSTI curve for the Xstream, the WoB on inhale goes from something like 0.2j/l up to 0.25j/l across the entire depth range under test #3 which is 62.5lpm at 50m. The exhalation is what kills the numbers for that regulator where it increases from .6j/l at the surface to about 1.3j/l at 200m.
I would take a regulator with a flat inhalation effort regardless of depth at that effort that had the increasing exhalation WoB long before I would take one that had an even increase of both inhale and exhale.
You're right, here is a better picture of the test setup, "diver" is vertical.
upload_2017-8-18_17-7-51.png


And here is a sample of the WOB curves.
upload_2017-8-18_17-8-45.png
upload_2017-8-18_17-9-17.png
 
@tbone1004 I just posted a comment on the article requesting that they give a link to the actual ANSTI results, so we can see the curves. We'll see what happens. Probably nothing. My g/f gave me a subscription to the print version of the magazine and it is mostly just complete trash, I think. The only useful thing I have really seen them do is the computer tests, and they don't even do a great job of that.

ps. I also marched tuba for 1 year of high school. Ahhh, the good ole' days.
 
Now that I think about it, does the orientation of the 1st and 2nd stages really matter when being tested in air? There is no significant pressure differential between them, no matter how you orient them, in air, right? Nothing like the pressure gradient if they were in water, on a diver.
 
Well..here is my take on it, and I did discuss with Scubalab my thoughts. the offered to send me the raw test results but I have not gotten them yet.

The Deep 6 signature is very close to the HOG/Zenith combo. I have some passing familiarity with both :) The Deep 6 second is slightly better with my turbo poppet. Look at the ratings it got compared a couple years back compared to the Deep 6 Signature. It simply doesn't make sense. Sample variation doesn't even explain what I am seeing in the review.

That aside, I KNOW that there were a whole bunch of regs in that review that outperform the unbalanced reg that earned top spot. Yet Scubalabs is saying the unbalanced outperformed them. I've spoken with others on the reg making side including folks that I compete with and they agree...not possible. In particular the at depth part.

The "objective" testing simply doesn't jibe with what I and others experienced in reg testing and design know.

The subjective comments in this case I put much more faith in.
If I were you, I would also wonder why the Deep 6 Signature performed less well than the Hog Zenith. Please let us know what you learn
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@tbone1004 I just posted a comment on the article requesting that they give a link to the actual ANSTI results, so we can see the curves. We'll see what happens. Probably nothing. My g/f gave me a subscription to the print version of the magazine and it is mostly just complete trash, I think. The only useful thing I have really seen them do is the computer tests, and they don't even do a great job of that.

ps. I also marched tuba for 1 year of high school. Ahhh, the good ole' days.
I hope they release the WOB curves. I don't think there will be a curve for the Deep 6 Signature for the 62.5 RMV/198 fsw test as exhalation/inhalation pressure exceeded +/- 25 millibars and the test was not completed.
 
@stuartv no pressure gradient in air so orientation doesn't matter. There is a LOT of venturi effect that happens in the exhaust diaphragm on exhale if it is in the right orientation, and obviously everyone is aware of the venturi on the inhale side if they've ever experienced a freeflow that stopped when the mouthpiece went down.

As to the AI question.
I have not used AI to map my breathing though am curious to do so at some point. The reasoning behind it being unlikely that you would be able to maintain that amount of breathing rate for any extended time unless you regularly do sprint type exercises is that you are in what is considered hyperventilation territory. Even those that do that regularly are rarely able to maintain it for over 1 minute without passing out.

Per CARB who did a big study, a male jogging at 12min/miles will breathe just under 60lpm or about 2cfm. While that is obviously not terribly fast and is certainly something that most people can maintain if you do any cardio work, it is unlikely you'll ever have to do something like that unless you are running away from something.
Walking a 24min mile is about .9cfm fwiw
So let's map to see if 3cfm is reasonable to attain for a while.
Total vital capacity of someone your size who marched brass instruments could be up to about 6 liters or .2cf. This is over twice what the ANSTI machine uses because to get that amount of air, you have to suck in as much as you can, and then forcefully exhale as much as you can. You have to repeat that 15x/minute to hit 3cfm. If you attempt this, do it on the couch because if you force yourself to maintain it for a full minute, you are liable to pass out. If you do it for 3 minutes, I'll be amazed. I have seen people that can do this, but when they did it, they were about to go to BUDS so were training for it.

A more realistic number is about about 3l/breath which is similar to the breath you would take while playing trombone and running around a football field. It is as much as you can reasonably inhale without trying very hard. To do that at 3cfm, you have to take those size breaths 29x/minute. In for 1s, out for 1s. If you do that, you are likely to pass out as well. This would be more analogous to running a 5k or something. Again, not impossible, but the odds that someone has a reason to maintain that underwater for any length of time is unlikely

The USN fwiw defines 2cfm as equivalent to running a 7.5min mile and is under "Heavy Work" and only specs up to 3.5cfm as "Severe Work". Hyperventilating causes O2 levels to drop in the body as it is trying to expel CO2 which is why you pass out. The USN says that their fit divers can maintain a SAC rate of 2.6cfm for about 2 minutes but any more than that is high risk. Anything over 2cfm is considered "extreme conditions" and is to be avoided if at all possible. They spec that anything over 1.4cfm means that the diver needs to slow down. If they are in hard hats the tenders will know their breathing rates and tell them to calm down. Now, this was taken primarily from a hardhat standpoint, but breathing is breathing, so if the USN says that their guys in good shape *which is a complete level if crazy in shape* can do 2.6cfm for 1-2 minutes if they have to, I find it hard that us mere mortals could maintain 20% more than that for 50% longer. If I had AI and I saw that on the graph, I'd definitely know what happened that caused a spike equivalent to what probably feels like trying to catch your breath after sprinting a mile.


Reference for CARB paper
Research Note: # 94-11 How Much Air Do We Breathe?
Good discussion in the KM manual on breathing rates. Obviously scheduled around hard hats, but same principals apply
http://www.kirbymorgan.com/sites/default/files/pdf/manuals/km77/KM77_Complete.pdf
 
@scubadada
Below is the curve for the Xstream for their EN250 test which is Test 3 from Scubalab. Somewhere between the curves that you posted below. What is important to note is that while the total work of breathing may be similar, there is almost no work of breathing on the inhalation side of the Xstream and it is heavily biased on the exhale side. Whatever regulator was shown from Scubalab shows increased resistance on the inhale side which is what you really perceive as work of breathing.

diagram-Regulator_extreme_dive-ID-bb66f801-46c8-45a9-c8f4-80075f15a890.jpg


upload_2017-8-18_17-8-45-png.422898.png
 
@stuartv no pressure gradient in air so orientation doesn't matter. There is a LOT of venturi effect that happens in the exhaust diaphragm on exhale if it is in the right orientation, and obviously everyone is aware of the venturi on the inhale side if they've ever experienced a freeflow that stopped when the mouthpiece went down.

As to the AI question.
I have not used AI to map my breathing though am curious to do so at some point. The reasoning behind it being unlikely that you would be able to maintain that amount of breathing rate for any extended time unless you regularly do sprint type exercises is that you are in what is considered hyperventilation territory. Even those that do that regularly are rarely able to maintain it for over 1 minute without passing out.

Per CARB who did a big study, a male jogging at 12min/miles will breathe just under 60lpm or about 2cfm. While that is obviously not terribly fast and is certainly something that most people can maintain if you do any cardio work, it is unlikely you'll ever have to do something like that unless you are running away from something.
Walking a 24min mile is about .9cfm fwiw
So let's map to see if 3cfm is reasonable to attain for a while.
Total vital capacity of someone your size who marched brass instruments could be up to about 6 liters or .2cf. This is over twice what the ANSTI machine uses because to get that amount of air, you have to suck in as much as you can, and then forcefully exhale as much as you can. You have to repeat that 15x/minute to hit 3cfm. If you attempt this, do it on the couch because if you force yourself to maintain it for a full minute, you are liable to pass out. If you do it for 3 minutes, I'll be amazed. I have seen people that can do this, but when they did it, they were about to go to BUDS so were training for it.

A more realistic number is about about 3l/breath which is similar to the breath you would take while playing trombone and running around a football field. It is as much as you can reasonably inhale without trying very hard. To do that at 3cfm, you have to take those size breaths 29x/minute. In for 1s, out for 1s. If you do that, you are likely to pass out as well. This would be more analogous to running a 5k or something. Again, not impossible, but the odds that someone has a reason to maintain that underwater for any length of time is unlikely

The USN fwiw defines 2cfm as equivalent to running a 7.5min mile and is under "Heavy Work" and only specs up to 3.5cfm as "Severe Work". Hyperventilating causes O2 levels to drop in the body as it is trying to expel CO2 which is why you pass out. The USN says that their fit divers can maintain a SAC rate of 2.6cfm for about 2 minutes but any more than that is high risk. Anything over 2cfm is considered "extreme conditions" and is to be avoided if at all possible. They spec that anything over 1.4cfm means that the diver needs to slow down. If they are in hard hats the tenders will know their breathing rates and tell them to calm down. Now, this was taken primarily from a hardhat standpoint, but breathing is breathing, so if the USN says that their guys in good shape *which is a complete level if crazy in shape* can do 2.6cfm for 1-2 minutes if they have to, I find it hard that us mere mortals could maintain 20% more than that for 50% longer. If I had AI and I saw that on the graph, I'd definitely know what happened that caused a spike equivalent to what probably feels like trying to catch your breath after sprinting a mile.


Reference for CARB paper
Research Note: # 94-11 How Much Air Do We Breathe?
Good discussion in the KM manual on breathing rates. Obviously scheduled around hard hats, but same principals apply
http://www.kirbymorgan.com/sites/default/files/pdf/manuals/km77/KM77_Complete.pdf
Extremely useful post for perspective. The ANSTI tests cover a RMV from 1.32-2.65 cf/min, this seems entirely adequate to me. I have occasionally been short of breath while diving, this has often seemed to be more due to exhalation effort than inhalation effort. My response is usually to cool it, regardless of what I'm doing. This is usually swimming into current or doing a cross current swim across the reef. As previously posted, I dive a Scubapro MK25/S600, a pretty high performing regulator. Thanks very much for the information
 

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