I'm the Pariah again

[jonnythan]

Get off the soap box.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN OK SIGN HERE.

Not being caught off shore on the Andrea Gail in the perfect storm with life or death consequences with every moment.



That's what I said many pages ago. Glad we are on the same page now.

You can try to paint me as somebody who thumbs their nose at all captains or authority, and ignores every comment question or order from them if that's what you need to do to make your point, you are wrong however, or you can actually read what I've said in regard to this incident in this thread, which is about an ok sign, and put it all in perspective and admit the over reaction from a egotistical ass of a captain trying to embarrass and humiliate Matt on the dive boat for being nothing more than a confused diver trying to do the right thing while an ass of a captain over-reacts to the entire incident.

Had Matt's dive buddy acted correctly, they would have been in the process of trying to find Matt the missing diver instead of trying to beat an Ok signal out of the poor guy. Again - this thread is about Matt, and I applaud him and his efforts and say he did very well dealing with the situation with the knowledge and experience he had at the time.

Have you ever seen someone drown?

It's a very quiet process. There's generally no mad flailing and screaming - there's just a person on the surface of the water, bobbing up and down until they disappear. There's panic, certainly, but that manifests in different ways.

We are talking about an OK sign. An OK sign the OP did not give. The captain was faced with a lone buddyless diver on the surface, who was not giving an OK sign, and whose responses indicated tunnel vision and perhaps a little panic. In the captain's eyes, there was a very good chance this diver was in serious peril.

 

[Reck Diver]

There are a lot of captains that are egotistical jerks, but once you step onto THEIR BOAT, you damn well better be prepared to follow THEIR RULES. You can be pissed about what goes on, you can demand a refund when you get to shore... you might even have a man to man talk with the captain (if you don't have a "pussy mouth") when you reach the dock... but you really do need to respect the authority of the capt. while you are on his boat.

I don't get the impression that you understand this concept.

Well said. On my boat we don't have a lot of rules. We want to have fun and be safe. I've been running my boat for a lot of years, I generally have a reason for doing things a certain way. If a guest on my boat can't live with that, then, feel free to go elsewhere to dive. That cattle boats need the business. I'm also not opposed to suggestions or trying new things, but in the middle of a dive is not the time. Though truth be told most ideas I hear are not new and don't work for one reason or another.

If I were to step on another Capt.'s boat, I would make sure I knew what to expect in advance. It's not hard to find out. Frankly from what I hear, I wouldn't dive with a lot of ops in my area.

I still can't get past having to swim 200 yards into a strong current to get back to a boat with a motor!

 

[fdarden]

I dont know about any of this other stuff Matt, a lot of it is rife with opinion. I will say that it is not OK to be rude to a paying customer for any reason whatsoever. Telling your buddy who's driving your boat to get his head out of his a** is one thing, but to address a customer in that fashion is inappropriate and unacceptable. I am sure the owners of that operation if they care about their customers at all, would love to hear your feedback. If the customer is presenting eminent danger to the vessel and crew then being a little firm is one thing, but rude, that's not acceptable in any setting with me. Even if you did something wrong. Captain runs the risk of inducing panic and anger and possible violence by acting in this manner, putting the entire trip in jeopardy. I can assure you had I been on that charter and witnessed this behavior I probably would not dive with them again either. I dont blame you for not being "OK" with what went down, and the captains feeble attempt to apologize to you, as well as his assumption that you would accept it, was a little to little too late in my opinion. Im surprised he didn't call you "Bro" People pay to go on a charter boat to Scuba dive, have a good time, and relax. This sort of behavior is counter-intuitive to all of that. Captain Bly's are a dime a dozen, and that attitude when I see it is a warning sign for me (I captain a private vessel myself) to keep my eyes dialed in on him. Invariably these types tend to also have awful boating skills as well. I will never forget the time I went on a charter here, and Captain Bly was aboard, bossing everyone around like he was the Captain of a 300' cruise ship. Leaving the dock there was a line left on, and he about ripped the piling off the dock with his aggressive throttling technique. Well, at the end of the first dive, he started losing divers, and PLEADING for us to assist with the search. Yelling and screaming "Cmon people I need your help finding these divers!!!" - We ended up finding all the divers, but needless to say we never go on that charter operation anymore, and we keep tabs on where that particular captain is working from month to month, since it seems to change frequently for some reason I know if I felt my buddies life was possibly at risk (whether it really was or not is irrelevant) I would be making a GIANT stink on the surface, and OK would not have been one of the signals I would have been shooting. You are not being paid to be on that boat, you are not part of the crew. There are certain basic expectations of you as a diver to be competent, and you should ALWAYS strive to be more competent in every decision and thing you do as it relates to diving, but you are not REQUIRED to act or do anything in particular. Furthermore, even if you were an employee rudeness is still not acceptable. Think of the other passengers.

 

[Reck Diver]

Having 100 dives before rescue is asking for more dead and injured divers.

That's nonsense

 

[CT-Rich]

This is quite a thread. Here is my two cents, Matt might have handled the in water situation better. Fair enough. The real day killer was when he was back on the boat. The captain is respncible for the whole group. If he is pissed and asks you if you know what the okay signal is, answer him. He is the one who has to explain it to the coast guard and the lawyers. It is amazing the stuff people don't know or forget understress. After you respond (and aknowledge his authority on his own boat) he probably would have calmed down immediately, reviewed hand signals and moved on... You would not be the first diver that did something upsetting while on his boat. I bet some guy the week before probalby rolled over the side over weighted with his air off. When he came around to apologize would have been a good time to laugh the episode off and chalk it up as a learning experience. There are time that we need to eat some crow and he was willing to share a plate with you. The sad thing is that you put a cap in back of the head of your own outing. Force a smile, and fifteen minutes later you would have been one of the guys again. Insta-buddies are getting lost all the time. You really can't change what others do, but you do control how you react.

Live, learn and move on. You did what you thought was right... he has more experience and was responcible for you and your partner, rather than deciding sulk you should have gotten a second dive in...

---------- Post Merged at 11:31 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:46 AM ----------

my instinct here is that while the captain might have reacted poorly (I wasn't on the boat), from reading the title of this thread and the other threads involving Matt he needs to be more aware of his actions and reaction. I would be careful about going after the captain after reading Matt's thread from earlier in July. Matt sounds like he needs to become more reflective in his assessments of his actions. To his credit he has been willing to post his experiences here to share with others... I am someone who is inclined to foot-in-mouth disease so I will give him credit where it is due. It can be hard to let stuff roll off your back and still learn from the situation.

I did benefit from the signal discussion. Very handy to go over them. Never enough opportunities to review procedures for when things go South, better to learn about them in a situation that does not involve a body count. The nice thing about hanging around the same people all the time is to learn to exchange F**k you's and still get beer later.

 

[markmantei]

Matt, I would also suggest that sometimes you need to be particularly patient with vacation insta-buddies. They may not have much experience, and there are numerous indications on this board that some recieve dubious training. While I wouldn't advocate diving with anyone who is unsafe, sometimes newbie divers will make mistakes, we've all been there at one time, and it is nothing to be ashamed of. I have no desire to become an instructor, but diving with, and helping new divers develop their skills and knowledge base can be very rewarding. Please remember that it was a learning experience for your buddy as well.

 

[TomZ]

I wasn't there and don't know where/why the buddy separation occurred. The one question/situation I haven't seen posed (hopefully I didn't miss it) is this:

When Matt's buddy got in the boat alone, he most assuredly should have been asked "Where's your buddy?" If the insta-buddy wasn't asked about Matt, he most certainly should have given that information to the crew. Matt didn't respond with an "OK" (and diver and boat were within hearing range) a simple "Your buddy is on the boat" most likely would have elicited an "OK" from Matt. The boat crew should have known Matt was looking for his buddy. If they didn't, therein lies another problem. Let's imagine the insta-buddy told the crew he lost his buddy because his buddy (Matt) was exhibiting poor buddy discipline and the insta-buddy or crew decided a lesson needed to be taught... another huge problem.

EDIT: Trying to think pro-actively: There is a hand signal for Something is wrong: With hand flat, palm down, fingers apart, thumb sticking out, rock hand back and forth on the axis of the forearm. May be followed by another signal indicating source of problem."

Followed up with: "Get with your buddy: may have been a good choice.

http://www.angelfire.com/nj4/divers/CommonHandSignalsforScubaDiving.pdf

 

[Mike]

I wasn't there and don't know where/why the buddy separation occurred. The one question/situation I haven't seen posed (hopefully I didn't miss it) is this:

When Matt's buddy got in the boat alone, he most assuredly should have been asked "Where's your buddy?" If the insta-buddy wasn't asked about Matt, he most certainly should have given that information to the crew. Matt didn't respond with an "OK" (and diver and boat were within hearing range) a simple "Your buddy is on the boat" most likely would have elicited an "OK" from Matt. The boat crew should have known Matt was looking for his buddy. If they didn't, therein lies another problem. Let's imagine the insta-buddy told the crew he lost his buddy because his buddy (Matt) was exhibiting poor buddy discipline and the insta-buddy or crew decided a lesson needed to be taught... another huge problem.

EDIT: Trying to think pro-actively: There is a hand signal for

Something is wrong: With hand flat, palm down, fingers apart, thumb sticking out, rock hand back and forth on the axis of the forearm. May be followed by another signal indicating source of problem." Followed up with: "Get with your buddy: may have been a good choice.

http://www.angelfire.com/nj4/divers/CommonHandSignalsforScubaDiving.pdf

I've actually brought this up multiple times. It's the crux of the issue as far as I'm concerned.

Matt was trying to do the right thing, while his buddy was on board the whole time with zero concerns at all for Matt's welfare.

If the captain needed a victim to spew venom on, it should have been Matt's buddy with a "You lost your buddy, returned to the boat and never said a word to anybody?????!!!!"

 

[EastEndDiver]

I have to question whether Matts buddy told the Captain/DM that he was seperated from his buddy and he (Matt) was still in the water alone,therefore the concern of the Captain to ascertain Matts condition by signaling for him (Matt) to communicate whether he was OK or not. Remember we are hearing only one side of this saga.

 

[diversteve]

I've actually brought this up multiple times. It's the crux of the issue as far as I'm concerned.

Matt was trying to do the right thing, while his buddy was on board the whole time with zero concerns at all for Matt's welfare.

If the captain needed a victim to spew venom on, it should have been Matt's buddy with a "You lost your buddy, returned to the boat and never said a word to anybody?????!!!!"

I have to question whether Matts buddy told the Captain/DM that he was seperated from his buddy and he (Matt) was still in the water alone,therefore the concern of the Captain to ascertain Matts condition by signaling for him (Matt) to communicate whether he was OK or not. Remember we are hearing only one side of this saga.

That's been exactly my point in both of my other posts in this thread. It's never been stated by Matt (I've re-read his narrative carefully) whether or not the buddy communicated what happened to the Captain. It puts a very different light on the actions of the Captain if he did as now they're presumed looking for a single diver who swam off and left his buddy for some reason. It changes the entire complexity of the situation. Either way they're dealing with a solo diver in the water situation - just that it's likely uncertain at the time of the root cause.

As I mentioned earlier, I can't believe that the DM/Captain who - one would assume is using a re-boarding checklist - wouldn't have made some comment when the buddy checked in.

I've asked both Matt and Mike to comment on how they know this wasn't communicated in both of my previous posts - neither has. I've previously highlighted the questionable areas in this post: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/428559-im-pariah-again-2.html#post6429766

Remember we are hearing only one side of this saga.

And IMO there are some discrepancies as noted by others previously. I doubt Matt even knows if it was reported by his buddy unless the Captain, his buddy or someone else mentioned it later.