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Scuba once bubbled...

Absolutely! But I can't help but noticed you cleverly decided not to address the issue I was reffering too: Proselytization.

The messege is gaining converts and also alienating many as well, in my opinion largely due to delivery.
So Kpauley jumped the gun here, think he's maybe tired of it. Not an excuse, just a reason.



I respectfully disagree that this is a one sided issue or that DIR advocates are pushing their position any more aggressively than non-DIR advocates. Its a case by case analysis. In most cases, people on both sides are presenting their opinion in a rational, respectful manner.

What seems to alienate people most is the DIR position that many diver's skills, particularly their buoyancy and their ability to react to crises, are inadequate and that their gear is not the most streamlined or failure proof configuration possible. The skills deficiencies become more noticeable in higher risk situations (cave or overhead) where you have a smaller margin for error. The gear issues become obvious when the gear fails or when the diver needs to expend more energy than necessary, which decreases gas supply.

These are difficult statements to dispute because they are factually accurate. BTW, I'll cheerfully admit that my skills are not perfect either.

The difference lies in the response to the situation. DIR trained divers strive for continuous skills improvement. We try to acheive perfect skills. We don't settle for mediocre.

It seems like many divers take offense at this factual statement and that they defend by claiming that their skills are "good enough". Good enough for a dive in which everything goes well, perhaps, although I got really sick of beanie babies dropping into the water and contorting their way around a dive site on my last trip to the Caymans. Regardless, good enough for a dive in which the poo-poo hits the fan is another matter. And it can happen.

Similarly, we choose to sacrifice what some to believe is convenience and comfort for function. That's our choice. We tell other people because we believe in it. You do the same when you recommend your favorite gear.

Scuba once bubbled...

True, I really don't know who started it. But I do know who the loudest mouths are since I've been here. DIR proponents have pretty much had free rein, only occassionaly being checked by some. And then they feign injury and insult and persecution.


I wasn't reffering to any one particular adherent, only to DIR "real" leaders/founders. I see you made not attempt to defend your leaders behavior, or is denial a better word.


This is barely worth a response. As far as I can recall, the DIR/non-DIR debates I've been involved in started when someone went on an anti-DIR rant. When we go around calling people strokes, etc..., we get stepped on by our own people (see UP's response to this type of behavior). Anti-DIR divers, OTOH, have no internal police system.

As for free rein, we have no more and no less freedom than the rest of you. I suspect that it comes down to the fact that our dive system has been planned from the ground up to be a functional, as opposed to a marketing, success. That, combined with the fact that the rationale is freely available and is discussed during training, is the reason that we are able to rebut arguments.

I don't represent DIR. However, if I did, I would refer to my statement above regarding skills as the best reason for advocating change. Like it or not, those DIR big boys can really dive.

Scuba once bubbled...

I didn't mention any specific claims, but used the qualifier "portion". You respond by citing a few examples, which I do not doubt, in an attempt to imply that my claims are false.
Consider the claim those classified as Strokes are unsafe divers.
Consider the claim that those who don't adhere to certain DIR precepts are ignorant and dangerous. Solo diving. Computer users.


I provided example to prove that you are not correct. I also challenged you to show that your system is better. All you have to do is beat us at our own game.

As for "stroke", the definition of a stroke is an unsafe diver.

Your error lies in the assumption that DIR divers assume that anyone who doesn't dive a BP&W is an unsafe diver. This is simply incorrect.

A stroke is a person with the wrong attitude. For example, someone who leaves a buddy is a stroke. Someone who deliberately violates a dive plan over the objections of a dive team is a stroke. Someone who refuses to even try to improve their skills is a stroke.

Not having DIR gear does not make you a stroke. There is a difference between a non-DIR diver and a stroke.

Scuba once bubbled...
Every system has its strengths and weaknessess when compared to others. Ever stop to see the irony of how what many apparently beleive is supposedly a "universal" gear configuration created by the "master of the caves" won't even get you into some caves where sidemounts are required.


There is no irony. The essence of DIR is risk minimization and streamlining. In terms of gear, it boils down to (1) figure out the best gear for your needs; (2) take it; and (3) leave everything else behind.

I dive wrecks, not caves. Sidemounts have not yet become an issue for me and, frankly, I doubt that they ever will. However, I see nothing wrong with them if it is established that they are the least risky gear configuration for a particular task.

As for my overall response, its real simple. If someone wants to engage in intelligent debate, great. I can do that. If someone wants to engage in name calling, well, I can do that as well.
 
Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
Wait. There was a topic...... ohhhh, never mind.

But I LIKE Hockey. And I REALLY like beer.

Did someone say BEER? :boozer: :cheers:
 
I agree there is much misunderstanding on both sides. Can I suggest this is due to a failure to clearly articulate the messege that is being spread, and correcting those who are misinformed - on both sides.

We just have to disagree on some issues. By the way, I did notice in your post the typical DIR ploys attempting to shift the goal line and change the subject, in contrast to what I think was my attempt to address the specific issues you raised, irrelevant of outcome and admitting error when present. In contrast you concede no point of mine as being valid, shift or ignore the issue as may be suitable to obfuscate the specific issues being discussed with the intent to always come out ahead. Nice try. You may fool those who are told what to think and why to think it - but not those who know how to think.

In regards to this specific point of yours:
The essence of DIR is risk minimization and streamlining. In terms of gear, it boils down to (1) figure out the best gear for your needs; (2) take it; and (3) leave everything else behind

So what are all the arguments about? Let me guess. Only DIR is capable of making a valid determination in these matters, correct?

An infallible system for infallible people.

Sorry, but I don't qualify.
 
Coyote bubbled...
Did someone say BEER?


I must have overlooked that. I'm for that. Maybe a few of these people need to have a couple & chill out.

I'm REAL new to the DIR stuff. Just got the Fundamentals & Tech 1 manuals. They're a lot like the training manual from the early 70's I had.

Agree with a lot of what's in there, but not everybody dives caves & wrecks, and some (note I said SOME) of the pro-DIR poters here don't seem to want to acquiesce to that just as much as the non-DIRs won't accept the demands and risks that are inherent in the kind of diving that requires the regimented approach to it dictated by DIR.

Only been participating on the boards for a month of so. On some post somewhere it was suggested that, much like it is with non-DIR, there are those that are going to be closed minded & unilateral to their cause.

I've found a number of posts by pro DIR that have been very helpful in my becoming more knowledgeable on the subject. Then there are others that sem to have nothing better to do than bully pulpit the subject. Oh, well. Learned to deal with that in life in general, guess I shouldn't be surprised to find it here as well.

Looks like we may have a DIR-F class locally later this spring. I'm seriously looking at taking it to see just where I am in the scope of things skill wise. Have to agree that the level of skills in the general diving population is severly lacking in quality. I'm not DIR/GUE trained, but I can assure you I'm no more happy with that situation than you guys are.

Uncle Pug...do computers really rot the brain?

(Aren't you sitting in front of one right now?) :confused:

LOL


Oh Yeah. Go AVs!

Yesterday was my Friday, and it's after noon here, so I better make a beer run & have one for Coyote. :cheers:
 
Scuba once bubbled...
I agree there is much misunderstanding on both sides. Can I suggest this is due to a failure to clearly articulate the messege that is being spread, and correcting those who are misinformed - on both sides.

We just have to disagree on some issues. By the way, I did notice in your post the typical DIR ploys attempting to shift the goal line and change the subject, in contrast to what I think was my attempt to address the specific issues you raised, irrelevant of outcome and admitting error when present. In contrast you concede no point of mine as being valid, shift or ignore the issue as may be suitable to obfuscate the specific issues being discussed with the intent to always come out ahead. Nice try. You may fool those who are told what to think and why to think it - but not those who know how to think.

In regards to this specific point of yours:


So what are all the arguments about? Let me guess. Only DIR is capable of making a valid determination in these matters, correct?

An infallible system for infallible people.

Sorry, but I don't qualify.

Nope. No shifting goal line. Just holding the line.

I don't agree with your accusations. Therefore there is not reason for me to concede anything.

Did I say that I was infallible? Ooh, so sorry. I thought that I cheerfully conceded that I need to improve my skills.

DIR is not the only entity that can make this determination. However, they are the only ones who've done it to date.

I'm more than willing to concede anything you can prove. So prove to me that your gear configuration is correct. Identify the goals you are trying to satisfy and prove that your gear meets them in the best possible manner. Then convince me that I should abopt your goals.

While you're at it, please prove to me that DIR people are any less tolerant or, as you put it, loud mouthed, than the anti-DIR people.

In other words, put up or shut up.:D
 
Northeastwrecks once bubbled...


Nope. No shifting goal line. Just holding the line.

I don't agree with your accusations. Therefore there is not reason for me to concede anything.

Did I say that I was infallible? Ooh, so sorry. I thought that I cheerfully conceded that I need to improve my skills.

DIR is not the only entity that can make this determination. However, they are the only ones who've done it to date.

I'm more than willing to concede anything you can prove. So prove to me that your gear configuration is correct. Identify the goals you are trying to satisfy and prove that your gear meets them in the best possible manner.

While you're at it, please prove to me that DIR people are any less tolerant or, as you put it, loud mouthed, than the anti-DIR people.

In other words, put up or shut up.:D

Munch on this for a while. It may be a long while. :)
 
I'll take that as an admission that you can't prove your case. Not that it can't be done, but that you aren't going to do it.

Next victim, please.:getsome: :armed: :getsome:
 
I don't know if you have seen some of the computer, solo, deco, and other discussions here.

I can not prove anything to you or anyone else, all I can do is offer evidence and sound logical arguments. Only YOU can prove something to yourself.

Every serious discussion that I have ever attempted with DIR strokes has ended in the deep, dark recesses, 18,000 ft. in a cave. Where there is no light to see other viewpoints, even worse - to see one's own.

So I return to have fun with the Rightous One's. They just make it too easy. Now I'll return to having a good conversation with the wall.

No, I'm not drunk yet. But a beer sounds good right about now.:)

I will give due credit where its due, Northeastwrecks, the beginning of our discussion was better than most, it actually seemed to be going somewhere. Oh well.

You may have the last word.
 
Maybe I misconstrued your instruction that I should "munch on it." If so, I apoligize and invite further discussion.

When I say offer proof, I mean logical argument supported by facts. I'm sure as H*** not suggesting that either one of us go beyond our dive limits to prove a point. That's the same thing you suggested.

Give me your proof and I'll respond with mine. That's what makes this fun and interesting.

Personally, I will not engage in name calling unless someone else starts.

As for beer, beer GOOD. NEWrecks Want BEER.

Talk to you later.

Regards
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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