How Rigorous Should Training Be?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

I think the biggest thing to consider here is the diver taking responsibility and being self aware enough to dive within their skillset given whatever training, experience, and comfort level without ruining it for everyone else and/or unnecessarily destroying cave.


If Diver A gets passed by Instructor B, and Diver A lacks the ability to perform the necessary skills... Intructor B is a huge prick for allowing that to happen to the caves we dive. Diver A is a huge prick for not recognizing that kicking the **** out of the cave is wrong, and not what a trained diver should be doing. Its not a secret that we aren't supposed to suck at diving.







All that being said... Instructors only get you so far. Mentoring under more experience divers will get you to be a better diver over time. The experience of diving more caves, more often, as your skills allow does more for growth than anything else... as long as you can recognize your limits.
 
:( I'll be the bigger stroke here and concede. I do a lost line drill in deference to your greater skills!

I don't know that there's anything to concede... :wink:
 
Makes you wonder if some divers realize how much they suck. I feel like a pretty good diver but know I have lots to work on and improve. However, I don't think I suck. I dive with a few people and only one routinely insults my diving skills.

I did feel like quite the idiot swimming around the basin at Peacock recently trying to get a stage clipped on my Nomad. Turns out with the wing absolutely full of air, it's darn near impossible for me to accomplish that task. As soon as I let out some air, it was a piece of cake. Thank god no one noticed...
 
Makes you wonder if some divers realize how much they suck. I feel like a pretty good diver but know I have lots to work on and improve. However, I don't think I suck. I dive with a few people and only one routinely insults my diving skills.

I did feel like quite the idiot swimming around the basin at Peacock recently trying to get a stage clipped on my Nomad. Turns out with the wing absolutely full of air, it's darn near impossible for me to accomplish that task. As soon as I let out some air, it was a piece of cake. Thank god no one noticed...

why do you dive with this person? Assuming you don't suck :D I would stop diving with this person.
 
Now, you guys, if you are going to name a degree of siltout after me, you could at least spell my name right . . . :D

I also wonder, sometimes, if people know when their technique is bad. You would think that kicking things, hitting the ceiling, and leaving a silt trail would be obvious clues -- but for example, I left a silt trail in that passage Rob took us to; is there better technique that would not have done it? Is it bad diving to have chosen to swim that passage at all? Does the diver who COULD have done better think to himself, "Well, that was small -- nobody could have done any better than that."?

In my Full Cave class, we did a cave called Minotauro. The first 12 minutes of the cave is small and heavily decorated -- you are literally threading your way through the stalactites and stalagmites. My instructor told us, "Count the number of times you touch something," and I lost count around 40. Going through the second time, I hit something 12 times. The cave was the same, but I had learned something. Was I a bad diver the first time? What about the second time?

How do you develop the insight to know that you don't suck, but you could do better? Or is there such a "state of diving"?
 
In my Full Cave class, we did a cave called Minotauro. The first 12 minutes of the cave is small and heavily decorated -- you are literally threading your way through the stalactites and stalagmites. My instructor told us, "Count the number of times you touch something," and I lost count around 40. Going through the second time, I hit something 12 times. The cave was the same, but I had learned something. Was I a bad diver the first time? What about the second time?

How do you develop the insight to know that you don't suck, but you could do better? Or is there such a "state of diving"?

The first time you had never been to the cave so you would have to anticipate tight spots and navigating through the stalagmites and 'tites. The second time you had memory of the cave and more experience to anticipate it.

Case in point, yesterday my buddy and I dove a section of the cave (Camillo in Mexico) that we had not dove in probably 2 years. There were alot of "oh crap moments" as I was the one in front. Didn't remember those silty section being as silty and because it is a dark cave things come up fast on a scooter.

And I also think sometimes you just have off days...I know I do. And on just about every dive I go over in my head, something I could have done better.

Now if I see someone making cave silt angels, having swordfights with broken stalagmites, or walking through the cave there might be some discussion about further training :)
 
Last edited:
I don't get why some divers are so self critical.

I think the biggest thing to consider here is the diver taking responsibility and being self aware enough to dive within their skillset given whatever training, experience, and comfort level without ruining it for everyone else and/or unnecessarily destroying cave.
...
All that being said... Instructors only get you so far. Mentoring under more experience divers will get you to be a better diver over time. The experience of diving more caves, more often, as your skills allow does more for growth than anything else... as long as you can recognize your limits.

I, too, am extremely self critical, and I know what it means to be afraid that some of the more critical people will watch me dive an be critical. If you think I am like Peter and Lynne in that regard, you should have seen how nervous I was to be diving with them in October!

Living in Colorado and not being independently wealthy, I have limited opportunity for such dives. I am full cave without a single dive past that certification. I certainly know my limits, and I would love to have a Mentor willing to take me and my flaws on appropriate dives and help me grow. But who would that be? I read these posts, see people making critical statements that feed my paranoia, and I cross them off the list of potential Mentors. As I do, I also realize why I am so self critical.

We are all on a growth curve. Some people are pretty far along the way, and sometimes I feel that, for them, anyone who is not already at the superskill level is a piece of crap and will be regarded as such. Not wanting to be regarded as a piece of crap....
 
Whenever a cave student does not meet the standards for whatever cave class s/he is enrolled in that student should be told to come back at a later date to try & complete the class. This is a large part of a cave instructors' responsibility & it is not fun telling someone they did not pass.

In the long term every student who I have made come back later, and eventually passsed has appreciated the candor and appreciated the fact that they eventually made the grade, and were not turned loose on themselves or unsuspecting buddies.

If the student has buoyancy issues, reel issues or just general issues managing the equipment I tell them go practice in open water and then come back. *IF* otoh there are attitude issues I tell them they are not psychologically ready for cave diving. Much of this is indeed subjective, but this is part of what a cave instructor gets paid to do.

I have not passed quite a few students and had most of them come back to me to complete their classes. I have had a couple simply choose another cave instructor. I have had a handful who I thought were not mentally (attitude) ready for cave diving and have not seen nor heard from the since.
 
There haven't been many new posts in here lately, and I feel like rocking the boat just slightly.

This is discussed often, and some people take it incredibly seriously.

How hard should cave training be?

"Hard" or "easy" are simply perceptions. What may be hard for one person might be easy for another. IMO, there are "no excuses" exercises and concepts that a student or new cave diver MUST absolutely understand and demonstrate. Among these are:

1. Attitude - probably the signal most important factor and the keystone that supports all other factors. There are many cave divers, even talented ones, that possess attitudes that disturb land owner relations and endanger the safety of themselves or others. Most training standards suggest failure for improper attitude and lack of maturity.

2. Awareness - environment, equipment, team and self awareness are all important for safe cave diving - especially of team members signaling, "Emergency!" I have failed 2 students for their inability to develop this skill despite attempts to build instant awareness of emergency light and touch hand signals.

3. Acceptable trim, buoyancy and propulsion - none of these need be "perfect." In fact, practicing such skills ad nauseam prior to cave training may detract from understanding the relationship between these techniques as they apply to the environment. Often "perfect" divers believe they are diving better than they are, but their techniques are actually disturbing silt or damaging the cave environment. What looks good on video in open water may be problematic in the real world environment of the cave. One learns to adjust these factors while learning to dive better. These skills need to be good, but not perfect. The environment will teach you how to adjust or modify these factors as necessary. However, if there is enough of a deficiency that standards, diver safety or environmental protection are jeopardized then the student is not ready to "pass" that level.

4. Gas management - absolutely must be understood during dive planning and execution with like and dissimilar tanks. The rules of sixths, thirds, stage use, etc., must be applied correctly for each level of training, the environment or conditions.

5. Understand and obey the 5 rules:

- Be trained for cave diving and never exceed your level of training
- Always maintain a continuous guideline to open water (or safe exit)
- Always reserve at least 2/3 of your gas supply for exit
- Always carry at least 3 lights
- Never dive deeper than 130 feet on air or have an END of greater than 130 feet on mix

There are other factors that an instructor needs to consider, but these are the "deal breakers."

There are minimum standards, but instructors vary greatly in terms of the quality of students they produce.

Even the best student may become rusty without proper skill maintenance. Depending upon the ability of a student upon completing a course, the amount of diving to improve or maintain ability is inversely proportional to talent. A talented student may perform well even after long absences. A student who needs work will almost certainly suffer without routine cave diving. The quality of the student isn't always a reflection upon the quality of the instructor. The phrase "Every dive is a cave dive," is meant to encourage cave-trained divers to maintain the skills, knowledge, and attitudes needed for safe and skilled cave diving. Even those students who are dialed-in when it comes to skills can do the most ludicrous things.

In the years past, cave training wasn't a short certification course, it was a months or years long process of mentoring.

In years past, the majority of cave divers were locals who were primarily cave divers. The diving industry wasn't promoting cave diving. Today, thanks to the Internet, agencies pushing cave diving, and even message boards like ScubaBoard, more and more divers are seeking learn the skills taught in cave classes or add cave diver certifications to their scuba resumes.

Nowadays, some people go and do a course in Mexico while others do a course in Florida. Within Florida, some do a course entirely at low flow caves while others do their course at high flow caves. Some instructors meet minimum skills requirements while others go above and beyond, pushing students to handle more drills than are required. Is there a difference in quality of diver? Is the diver who has never dove in a Florida cave, "as much" a cave diver as the diver who has only dove in a Florida cave? How about the reverse?

As an instructor who pushes students to excel at drills far beyond the minimum, I can say that such drills are a double-edged sword. First, without mastery of the foundations of cave diving all the extra stuff will be for naught. So, an instructor and a student really need to work together to dial-in the basics before getting creative and go spider walking on the ceiling while buddy breathing from an oral inflater or something crazy. Sometimes students who have excelled at training and have had everything including the kitchen sink thrown at them make the mistake of believing the ability of their diving skill somehow trumps experience.

A cave diver trained anywhere is just as much a cave diver as any other cave diver. A cave diver trained by Cristina Zenato or Brian Kakuk in the Bahamas is just as much a cave diver as one trained by Jim Wyatt or David Rhea in Florida or by Steve Boegarts or Danny Riordan in Mexico or by Cedric Verdier in France.

Each environment offers different challenges to skill. In Bahamian caves, a diver will need to employ solid shuffle or modified flutter kicks for far greater distances than in Florida. Muscles and skills will need to be developed so the diver doesn't cramp in those conditions. A Florida cave diver may have weaker abilities to perform such skills. Conversely, a cave diver from the Bahamas may find diving in high flow caves to be a challenge and the requisite skills will need to be developed. Even if you are trained in an environment, without practice your skills will atrophy.

- Too much scootering will reduce swimming propulsion skills
- Too much swimming will hamper the ability to scooter artfully
- Too much high flow diving will allow slop low flow caves won't tolerate
- Too much low flow diving will allow the techniques used for high flow to rust

No matter where you cave dive, you'll need to find the best ways to maintain your skills, balance your abilities, and you'll need extra education and guidance when changing environments that you haven't visited.

Lets throw a crazy idea out there and discuss it. Lets say that we double the training length, and require half of the dives to be done in a cave with a minimum flow output, and also a minimum silt requirement, so a minimum number of dives must be done in a system with enough silt to show true technique. Additionally, lets put a requirement in place that divers must show a minimum number of dives in a year or else their certification is revoked. This requirement would be, lets say, 15 dives in a minimum of 4 systems, and somehow require divers to visit more than just the same 4 caves every year until they die or quit the sport.

PSAI requires 12 full cave dives after apprentice if moving from zero to hero. In the hands of a talented educator additional dive time will be beneficial. In the hands of a poor educator added dives will only mean more time in the water with little to any improvement. When I teach, I balance high and low flow training. I think most instructors do this conditions permitting. Why would a diver from Grand Bahama need to visit a flow cave if his intention is to dive Grand Bahama? To say that he couldn't earn his NSS-CDS card, for example, without traveling to Florida is silly. If he travels to Florida, I'm sure he'll be smart enough to get a guide or seek instruction in high flow diving. Most cave divers have the proper attitude toward safety. Those who don't often end up in the IUCRR accident reports. You can regulate all you want, but regulations often can't fix stupid. Personal responsibility is the hallmark of a true cave diver.

As a diver whose buddy often needs to meet a dive quota, I can say that quotas tend to push divers into diving when they don't feel like it or into making dives they don't want to make. In that sense, quotas create the potential for accidents as much as they strive to keep divers diving to prevent accidents.

Do you think this might increase the quality of cave divers, and decrease fatalities? Or do you think there is no problem with the current training?

There are always problems with any proposed solution. I don't think current training is the problem, the problem is what divers do after their training. If we look at the PSAI Rules of Accident Analysis there are 10 rather than 5 including:

- solo diving
- poor skill maintenance
- poor equipment maintenance
- aging diving population
- new technologies

A very small number of deaths occur to untrained cave divers in recent history. Before training was available, many more untrained divers perished in caves. Today, trained cave divers are exceeding training limits, suffering health issues, diving solo, not keeping up with gear or skill maintenance or using rebreathers, scooters and gases to go "too far, too fast."

On a related note, why do we see some divers with many years of cave training and a high number of dives who only visit the "tourist caves" and other divers who are relatively new to the sport who are actively diving new caves, in some cases finding, exploring and surveying these caves? Is there a difference in diver quality? In an argument, should we discount the opinion of either diver, the one because he only dives tourist caves, and the other because he has fewer total dives? What happens when the diver who has never been outside of their area (either Florida or Mexico, and I'm generalizing here because I do know there are caves in other areas, just trying to keep it simple) joins the discussion? Or is it just a matter of logic, and one person will be more logically correct than the other?

Some people cave dive for recreation. Others cave dive to become the next explorer. Others make their living from cave diving such as through instruction, film-making, or scientific research. Everyone within the community can learn from everyone else. No voice should be discounted. Finding caves off the beaten path is often a matter of who you know and what you know about research and not necessarily related to your diving skill.

w00t, now there's a post from the month of December in T2T...what's the point of T2T if we aren't going to have fun discussions here? :D Flame away, folks!

Good post.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom