How Rigorous Should Training Be?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

There has been a lot of thought in this thread, and I really appreciate the combined effort.

As promised, I dove Peacock today. We made it just past the Peanut Restriction to the "End of the Line". It was a magical dive on so many levels. We both had gas, but chose not to make the jump for a variety of reasonsm, or "limits" we didn't want to cross. While we kicked up a bit of silt passing through the Restriction, I don't think we could actually rate it as an actual "silt out".

What was great was the end of the dive debriefing. I asked my buddy what he thought of my trim, etc and we both had a laugh @ the restriction. No doubt about it: he was a competent cave diver. He knew when he kicked the silt up (once other than the restriction) and even then, it was just not that bad. We both were amazed at the number of hand plants you can see in the grey gumbo clay. You might even be able to get finger prints on a few of them. :D

The point is: we both actually evaluated the other. Too often when I ask my buddy for a post dive critique, they just come up blank. Are they simply being polite because my skills suck that badly? I hope not. Still, I have to wonder at their situational awareness, or lack thereof that they can't comment on how I dive. Either way, it's impossible to improve without candid feedback about your diving. Unfortunately, the biggest offenders (for me) are instructors unless I am in their class.
 
"Hard" or "easy" are simply perceptions. What may be hard for one person might be easy for another. IMO, there are "no excuses" exercises and concepts that a student or new cave diver MUST absolutely understand and demonstrate. Among these are:

1. Attitude - probably the signal most important factor and the keystone that supports all other factors. There are many cave divers, even talented ones, that possess attitudes that disturb land owner relations and endanger the safety of themselves or others. Most training standards suggest failure for improper attitude and lack of maturity.

2. Awareness - environment, equipment, team and self awareness are all important for safe cave diving - especially of team members signaling, "Emergency!" I have failed 2 students for their inability to develop this skill despite attempts to build instant awareness of emergency light and touch hand signals.

3. Acceptable trim, buoyancy and propulsion - none of these need be "perfect." In fact, practicing such skills ad nauseam prior to cave training may detract from understanding the relationship between these techniques as they apply to the environment. Often "perfect" divers believe they are diving better than they are, but their techniques are actually disturbing silt or damaging the cave environment. What looks good on video in open water may be problematic in the real world environment of the cave. One learns to adjust these factors while learning to dive better. These skills need to be good, but not perfect. The environment will teach you how to adjust or modify these factors as necessary. However, if there is enough of a deficiency that standards, diver safety or environmental protection are jeopardized then the student is not ready to "pass" that level.

4. Gas management - absolutely must be understood during dive planning and execution with like and dissimilar tanks. The rules of sixths, thirds, stage use, etc., must be applied correctly for each level of training, the environment or conditions.

5. Understand and obey the 5 rules:

- Be trained for cave diving and never exceed your level of training
- Always maintain a continuous guideline to open water (or safe exit)
- Always reserve at least 2/3 of your gas supply for exit
- Always carry at least 3 lights
- Never dive deeper than 130 feet on air or have an END of greater than 130 feet on mix

There are other factors that an instructor needs to consider, but these are the "deal breakers."



Even the best student may become rusty without proper skill maintenance. Depending upon the ability of a student upon completing a course, the amount of diving to improve or maintain ability is inversely proportional to talent. A talented student may perform well even after long absences. A student who needs work will almost certainly suffer without routine cave diving. The quality of the student isn't always a reflection upon the quality of the instructor. The phrase "Every dive is a cave dive," is meant to encourage cave-trained divers to maintain the skills, knowledge, and attitudes needed for safe and skilled cave diving. Even those students who are dialed-in when it comes to skills can do the most ludicrous things.



In years past, the majority of cave divers were locals who were primarily cave divers. The diving industry wasn't promoting cave diving. Today, thanks to the Internet, agencies pushing cave diving, and even message boards like ScubaBoard, more and more divers are seeking learn the skills taught in cave classes or add cave diver certifications to their scuba resumes.



As an instructor who pushes students to excel at drills far beyond the minimum, I can say that such drills are a double-edged sword. First, without mastery of the foundations of cave diving all the extra stuff will be for naught. So, an instructor and a student really need to work together to dial-in the basics before getting creative and go spider walking on the ceiling while buddy breathing from an oral inflater or something crazy. Sometimes students who have excelled at training and have had everything including the kitchen sink thrown at them make the mistake of believing the ability of their diving skill somehow trumps experience.

A cave diver trained anywhere is just as much a cave diver as any other cave diver. A cave diver trained by Cristina Zenato or Brian Kakuk in the Bahamas is just as much a cave diver as one trained by Jim Wyatt or David Rhea in Florida or by Steve Boegarts or Danny Riordan in Mexico or by Cedric Verdier in France.

Each environment offers different challenges to skill. In Bahamian caves, a diver will need to employ solid shuffle or modified flutter kicks for far greater distances than in Florida. Muscles and skills will need to be developed so the diver doesn't cramp in those conditions. A Florida cave diver may have weaker abilities to perform such skills. Conversely, a cave diver from the Bahamas may find diving in high flow caves to be a challenge and the requisite skills will need to be developed. Even if you are trained in an environment, without practice your skills will atrophy.

- Too much scootering will reduce swimming propulsion skills
- Too much swimming will hamper the ability to scooter artfully
- Too much high flow diving will allow slop low flow caves won't tolerate
- Too much low flow diving will allow the techniques used for high flow to rust

No matter where you cave dive, you'll need to find the best ways to maintain your skills, balance your abilities, and you'll need extra education and guidance when changing environments that you haven't visited.



PSAI requires 12 full cave dives after apprentice if moving from zero to hero. In the hands of a talented educator additional dive time will be beneficial. In the hands of a poor educator added dives will only mean more time in the water with little to any improvement. When I teach, I balance high and low flow training. I think most instructors do this conditions permitting. Why would a diver from Grand Bahama need to visit a flow cave if his intention is to dive Grand Bahama? To say that he couldn't earn his NSS-CDS card, for example, without traveling to Florida is silly. If he travels to Florida, I'm sure he'll be smart enough to get a guide or seek instruction in high flow diving. Most cave divers have the proper attitude toward safety. Those who don't often end up in the IUCRR accident reports. You can regulate all you want, but regulations often can't fix stupid. Personal responsibility is the hallmark of a true cave diver.

As a diver whose buddy often needs to meet a dive quota, I can say that quotas tend to push divers into diving when they don't feel like it or into making dives they don't want to make. In that sense, quotas create the potential for accidents as much as they strive to keep divers diving to prevent accidents.



There are always problems with any proposed solution. I don't think current training is the problem, the problem is what divers do after their training. If we look at the PSAI Rules of Accident Analysis there are 10 rather than 5 including:

- solo diving
- poor skill maintenance
- poor equipment maintenance
- aging diving population
- new technologies

A very small number of deaths occur to untrained cave divers in recent history. Before training was available, many more untrained divers perished in caves. Today, trained cave divers are exceeding training limits, suffering health issues, diving solo, not keeping up with gear or skill maintenance or using rebreathers, scooters and gases to go "too far, too fast."

Some people cave dive for recreation. Others cave dive to become the next explorer. Others make their living from cave diving such as through instruction, film-making, or scientific research. Everyone within the community can learn from everyone else. No voice should be discounted. Finding caves off the beaten path is often a matter of who you know and what you know about research and not necessarily related to your diving skill.

Good post.

Sometimes clicking the Thanks button just isn't adequate. That's one of the most cogent posts on cave training I have ever read. Thank you, Trace, for this extremely useful post ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
!!!
There has been a lot of thought in this thread, and I really appreciate the combined effort.

As promised, I dove Peacock today. We made it just past the Peanut Restriction to the "End of the Line". It was a magical dive on so many levels. We both had gas, but chose not to make the jump for a variety of reasonsm, or "limits" we didn't want to cross. While we kicked up a bit of silt passing through the Restriction, I don't think we could actually rate it as an actual "silt out".

What was great was the end of the dive debriefing. I asked my buddy what he thought of my trim, etc and we both had a laugh @ the restriction. No doubt about it: he was a competent cave diver. He knew when he kicked the silt up (once other than the restriction) and even then, it was just not that bad. We both were amazed at the number of hand plants you can see in the grey gumbo clay. You might even be able to get finger prints on a few of them. :D

The point is: we both actually evaluated the other. Too often when I ask my buddy for a post dive critique, they just come up blank. Are they simply being polite because my skills suck that badly? I hope not. Still, I have to wonder at their situational awareness, or lack thereof that they can't comment on how I dive. Either way, it's impossible to improve without candid feedback about your diving. Unfortunately, the biggest offenders (for me) are instructors unless I am in their class.

Pete if you were to dive with bugman you wouldn't have to ask. You can hear him laugh at ya during the dive when you make it go poof!!
 
Pete if you were to dive with bugman you wouldn't have to ask. You can hear him laugh at ya during the dive when you make it go poof!!
GDI would do much the same thing.
 
"Hard" or "easy" are simply perceptions. What may be hard for one person might be easy for another. IMO, there are "no excuses" exercises and concepts that a student or new cave diver MUST absolutely understand and demonstrate. Among these are:

1. Attitude - probably the signal most important factor and the keystone that supports all other factors. There are many cave divers, even talented ones, that possess attitudes that disturb land owner relations and endanger the safety of themselves or others. Most training standards suggest failure for improper attitude and lack of maturity.

2. Awareness - environment, equipment, team and self awareness are all important for safe cave diving - especially of team members signaling, "Emergency!" I have failed 2 students for their inability to develop this skill despite attempts to build instant awareness of emergency light and touch hand signals.

3. Acceptable trim, buoyancy and propulsion - none of these need be "perfect." In fact, practicing such skills ad nauseam prior to cave training may detract from understanding the relationship between these techniques as they apply to the environment. Often "perfect" divers believe they are diving better than they are, but their techniques are actually disturbing silt or damaging the cave environment. What looks good on video in open water may be problematic in the real world environment of the cave. One learns to adjust these factors while learning to dive better. These skills need to be good, but not perfect. The environment will teach you how to adjust or modify these factors as necessary. However, if there is enough of a deficiency that standards, diver safety or environmental protection are jeopardized then the student is not ready to "pass" that level.

4. Gas management - absolutely must be understood during dive planning and execution with like and dissimilar tanks. The rules of sixths, thirds, stage use, etc., must be applied correctly for each level of training, the environment or conditions.

5. Understand and obey the 5 rules:

- Be trained for cave diving and never exceed your level of training
- Always maintain a continuous guideline to open water (or safe exit)
- Always reserve at least 2/3 of your gas supply for exit
- Always carry at least 3 lights
- Never dive deeper than 130 feet on air or have an END of greater than 130 feet on mix

There are other factors that an instructor needs to consider, but these are the "deal breakers."



Even the best student may become rusty without proper skill maintenance. Depending upon the ability of a student upon completing a course, the amount of diving to improve or maintain ability is inversely proportional to talent. A talented student may perform well even after long absences. A student who needs work will almost certainly suffer without routine cave diving. The quality of the student isn't always a reflection upon the quality of the instructor. The phrase "Every dive is a cave dive," is meant to encourage cave-trained divers to maintain the skills, knowledge, and attitudes needed for safe and skilled cave diving. Even those students who are dialed-in when it comes to skills can do the most ludicrous things.



In years past, the majority of cave divers were locals who were primarily cave divers. The diving industry wasn't promoting cave diving. Today, thanks to the Internet, agencies pushing cave diving, and even message boards like ScubaBoard, more and more divers are seeking learn the skills taught in cave classes or add cave diver certifications to their scuba resumes.



As an instructor who pushes students to excel at drills far beyond the minimum, I can say that such drills are a double-edged sword. First, without mastery of the foundations of cave diving all the extra stuff will be for naught. So, an instructor and a student really need to work together to dial-in the basics before getting creative and go spider walking on the ceiling while buddy breathing from an oral inflater or something crazy. Sometimes students who have excelled at training and have had everything including the kitchen sink thrown at them make the mistake of believing the ability of their diving skill somehow trumps experience.

A cave diver trained anywhere is just as much a cave diver as any other cave diver. A cave diver trained by Cristina Zenato or Brian Kakuk in the Bahamas is just as much a cave diver as one trained by Jim Wyatt or David Rhea in Florida or by Steve Boegarts or Danny Riordan in Mexico or by Cedric Verdier in France.

Each environment offers different challenges to skill. In Bahamian caves, a diver will need to employ solid shuffle or modified flutter kicks for far greater distances than in Florida. Muscles and skills will need to be developed so the diver doesn't cramp in those conditions. A Florida cave diver may have weaker abilities to perform such skills. Conversely, a cave diver from the Bahamas may find diving in high flow caves to be a challenge and the requisite skills will need to be developed. Even if you are trained in an environment, without practice your skills will atrophy.

- Too much scootering will reduce swimming propulsion skills
- Too much swimming will hamper the ability to scooter artfully
- Too much high flow diving will allow slop low flow caves won't tolerate
- Too much low flow diving will allow the techniques used for high flow to rust

No matter where you cave dive, you'll need to find the best ways to maintain your skills, balance your abilities, and you'll need extra education and guidance when changing environments that you haven't visited.



PSAI requires 12 full cave dives after apprentice if moving from zero to hero. In the hands of a talented educator additional dive time will be beneficial. In the hands of a poor educator added dives will only mean more time in the water with little to any improvement. When I teach, I balance high and low flow training. I think most instructors do this conditions permitting. Why would a diver from Grand Bahama need to visit a flow cave if his intention is to dive Grand Bahama? To say that he couldn't earn his NSS-CDS card, for example, without traveling to Florida is silly. If he travels to Florida, I'm sure he'll be smart enough to get a guide or seek instruction in high flow diving. Most cave divers have the proper attitude toward safety. Those who don't often end up in the IUCRR accident reports. You can regulate all you want, but regulations often can't fix stupid. Personal responsibility is the hallmark of a true cave diver.

As a diver whose buddy often needs to meet a dive quota, I can say that quotas tend to push divers into diving when they don't feel like it or into making dives they don't want to make. In that sense, quotas create the potential for accidents as much as they strive to keep divers diving to prevent accidents.



There are always problems with any proposed solution. I don't think current training is the problem, the problem is what divers do after their training. If we look at the PSAI Rules of Accident Analysis there are 10 rather than 5 including:

- solo diving
- poor skill maintenance
- poor equipment maintenance
- aging diving population
- new technologies

A very small number of deaths occur to untrained cave divers in recent history. Before training was available, many more untrained divers perished in caves. Today, trained cave divers are exceeding training limits, suffering health issues, diving solo, not keeping up with gear or skill maintenance or using rebreathers, scooters and gases to go "too far, too fast."



Some people cave dive for recreation. Others cave dive to become the next explorer. Others make their living from cave diving such as through instruction, film-making, or scientific research. Everyone within the community can learn from everyone else. No voice should be discounted. Finding caves off the beaten path is often a matter of who you know and what you know about research and not necessarily related to your diving skill.



Good post.

Exactly how much cave diving do you do each year?
 
I think, among the many things I like about the DIR dive community, one of the biggest is that we are taught from the beginning to debrief, and to do it honestly. Without feedback from my buddies, I'd have no idea that I was slipping into bad habits. My recent trip with Dive-aholic was wonderful -- Rob videotaped us, and I noticed I was dropping my knees in the loading phase of the frog kick. This has not been one of my issues in the past, and I was completely unaware I was doing it -- but once I saw the video, I could monitor myself and figure out when and why, and fix it. (The very next dive, Rob said things were MUCH better.)

I never end a cave dive without asking my buddies, "Well, how did it go? Anything that I could have done better?" They're a priceless resource, even if you have to pull teeth to get the information :)
 
Exactly how much cave diving do you do each year?

I normally make three trips to a cave diving destination per year and usually make at least 80 cave dives per year. I'm familiar with 24 systems in 3 countries.
 
Funny thing is, I don't see many GUE divers out there pushing any limits. I see them fairly often doing routine, easy dives at Ginnie and Peacock. They look ok in their teams. Good trim, decently well run lines. Don't run into their cookies, arrows or line in any challenging, out of the way tunnels or caves. :)

Not everyone is on an expedition...

If I lived closer and had the chance to dive there every weekend, I'd be very interested in doing more stuff off the beaten path like Kevin, Mat and a few others do.

Ease of access and logistics is a big part of my site selection. That and a crappy memory... They just never get old, and on my most recent trip, having a larger team illuminating the chambers really added depth and perspective to some awe inspiring passages.

While we kicked up a bit of silt passing through the Restriction, I don't think we could actually rate it as an actual "silt out".

So, something I've noticed my last few visits to Peacock, and the Peanut Restriction in particular... The restriction and silt mount were much larger in years past and we always took the path to the right to go around it... I had just always thought that was the 'proper' way to navigate that piece of cave...

Probably in the last 6 months or so, it's not so much a restriction any more. I'm wondering w/ the growth of side-mount more people are squeezing into some of these smaller places cleaning them out in the process.
 
So... it's not that the training sucks... becoming an instructor sucks.
Imagine that, you become a professional and get held to standards.

i do have a buddy who didn't feel his/her cavern/intro instructor was worth wasting a bullet on, but yeah, in general most (especially at first) don't know whether their instructor was good or not.

and yes on paul. seen it. sorry to have to say that, since i really like him.
My cavern+intro instructor sucked. He taught you how to cave dive within 1980's technology, and taught awful team awareness.

I've seen Paul teach too. Heck of a nice guy, but his students make me want to cry on the cave's behalf.

]In that respect, maybe those people who only dive Ginnie or Peacock are onto something ... maybe they only dive those caves because those are the places that are within the limits of what they feel comfortable diving. In which case, they are where they belong ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Let's just make it clear that they're not *improving* cave skills, but rather working within the limits of their (lack of) skill.

I am more worried about the new generation I see that doesnt want to spend the time to learn a system. Indian has a rule you must swm at least 5 times before scootering ( might be 3 times ) and I like that. I see too many too eager to want to see whats beyond an area they dont know yet.
FWIW I dove 50 dives at Intro and Apprentice before full cave, and then waited about 20 dives after full cave to start scootering. I think this experience was great to help in big dive planning, and at least 100 overall cave dives is a good number to me before touching a DPV. I realize some people say swim first, then scooter to get further next time....However, I just don't like swimming. I know that's taboo to a lot of people, but it's true. If I were local, I wouldn't dive JB if they didn't allow scooters there. Now, most caves aren't large enough to scooter, so I still swim a ton, but there's no way I'm swimming mainline Ginnie, Manatee, JB, etc. If a scooter won't fit, I'll still dive raging flow, IE "Big Blue" on the Wacissa.

I recently dove a cave I'd never been to, 140+ft deep siphon, and just planned the gas accordingly, turned after the first 2400-2800ft (not sure, there aren't any arrows).
 
Let's just make it clear that they're not *improving* cave skills, but rather working within the limits of their (lack of) skill.

Yeah those kinds of divers exist everywhere. Be grateful they aren't molesting or ruining your dives.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom