How Rigorous Should Training Be?

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Yeah those kinds of divers exist everywhere. Be grateful they aren't molesting or ruining your dives.
Doesn't bother me one bit, I actually dove those sites a TON. I just think it needs to be made clear that Ginnie and Peacock only teach you so much.

The recent Peacock fatality is a textbook example of someone who failed to extend their training and gain experience outside of the same caves. I think it's good to dive sites that challenge you, it keeps your skills refined. Ginnie divers are the worlds worst at complacency, it's not uncommon to see 2-3 teams down a jump line and not a single installed jump reel. A silt out or two might have kept that lady on her toes.
 
We've got some purported experts around here (some "mentors" and some are even tech instructors) who never dive beyond the most basic of sites. Easy to look good though, rule#6 and all that.
 
Call em out.

Are you asking me that?

There's no need to call someone a poser on the internet. If someone asks generally "who should I train with" I will give my recommendations. If they have someone specific in mind who is not on that list I will give my impressions personally (verbally or by PM). To make blanket public statements about particular individuals (who may or may not even be on this board) is tacky.

Besides new tech/deco/cave divers need to learn to read between the lines regarding which instructor is diving what and how.
 
To make blanket public statements about particular individuals (who may or may not even be on this board) is tacky.

Besides new tech/deco/cave divers need to learn to read between the lines regarding which instructor is diving what and how.

One might argue that it is tacky to give veiled hints that certain people are incompetent and leave it to others to guess who those might be.

When I chose my instructor, I sifted through the various threads on various sites in which people asked for recommendations. I looked for specific information about specific people so that I could choose one that was right for me. I not only wanted to know who was recommended, I wanted to know why they were recommended. Such comments were very helpful to me.

I don't think it is generally helpful to make vague accusations about nameless people who don't meet your standards of excellence.
 
Besides new tech/deco/cave divers need to learn to read between the lines regarding which instructor is diving what and how.

How would anyone know what they're diving? Most of the people I know that are diving on a regular basis don't bother posting about their dives. I usually only post updates on FB after classes. I hardly ever comment on my personal dives. I know a few other instructors that do the same.
 
Are you asking me that?

There's no need to call someone a poser on the internet. If someone asks generally "who should I train with" I will give my recommendations. If they have someone specific in mind who is not on that list I will give my impressions personally (verbally or by PM). To make blanket public statements about particular individuals (who may or may not even be on this board) is tacky.

Besides new tech/deco/cave divers need to learn to read between the lines regarding which instructor is diving what and how.

Tacky, fun, tomaytoes, tomahtoes :)

For everyone that asks about an instructor, there's prolly another two dozen who are just reading and would probably benefit greatly by the knowledge of who's a hack and who's not.

I'm with ya 100% on that last sentence.
 
How would anyone know what they're diving? Most of the people I know that are diving on a regular basis don't bother posting about their dives. I usually only post updates on FB after classes. I hardly ever comment on my personal dives. I know a few other instructors that do the same.

When I've invited an instructor out diving (on my personal boat) planning to go to several of the most dove wrecks in the PNW and they respond that: they have never done any of them and just take their many deco classes up and down a slope for the minimum required DSAT bottom time instead (20mins according to them)...

I call BS on that.

I don't think it is generally helpful to make vague accusations about nameless people who don't meet your standards of excellence.

When instructors post video footage of themselves kneeling on the bottom doing valve drills - on their business website offering technical diving instruction...

I call BS on that.

In both cases their prior students seem to love them, at least from testimonials I've overheard or seen. Everyone's instructor was "the best".

edit: While this is in the T2T cave section, I'm mostly talking about deco instructors locally. Not some rumor 3000miles away in NFL.
 
I'd be a lot more likely to take a class if I felt I would learn much from it...some of these classes, seeing how students who have the card dive, I'm just not so sure I'd learn anything, atleast nothing I can't learn from a book.

It's the same way I felt as when I was full cave but lacked an AOW card, and had AOW divers trying to lecture me on the proper ways to dive. I'm not an expert, but I'm also not stupid. I know my personal limits, and I don't push them, but I work constantly work to grow them, so that after every dive, I'm a better diver.

I still have rough dives at routine places...recently I went to Madison, and for the first 20 minutes, just felt out of the zone, uncomfortable in my gear...usually, nothing is more peaceful for me than putting on a drysuit and tanks and slipping underwater, but on this dive, it all felt awkward. After a little bit though, things started clicking into place again, and I spent a good portion of the dive concentrating on improving my frog kick, where I know I have a tendency to point my toes down where I think I can get them pointed a little further up, to minimize silting. I didn't need an instructor to teach me to frog kick, and I've never had an instructor criticize my frog kick, but over the course of several dives, with several constructive criticisms offered by dive buddies, and with the help of a photographer friend who managed to catch a few shots showing when in the kick I tended to start angling my toes, I'm improving my kick.

However, some divers just can't teach themselves or learn like that. Some divers can't handle the basic math involved in diving. Some divers can't know their personal limits. Some divers don't belong in caves.

And there are a whole ton of divers in between. I'm sure I'm not on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to self instruction, I'm probably just slightly above average. I think the divers that make you sit back and go "holy crap, that is one polished looking diver! I've never seen anyone dive that well!" probably are very good at self instruction, and/or dive with people who are very good at offering constructive criticism, and that their skill level did not necessarily come solely from instructors giving them cards.

However, the problem is, because not everyone can do that, is we do need certification cards to distinguish the good divers from the bad divers. And the problem with that is, not only is the certification seen as overly expensive and unnecessary by many divers who are good at becoming better divers on their own, but many instructors will give a card to someone who does not have a very polished skill level.

Does anyone know if you can roll AN/DP, Trimix, and DPV into one class, and do all of your dives at fun caves like Eagles Nest? Because I don't see the point in paying thousands of dollars for a class that's going to take a student down a slope until they hit the minimum dive time required, and at the full cave level I believe a diver most likely has most of the skills involved in those classes under basic control. Stages, gas switches, MOD math, gas math, towing a diver while sharing air, all pieces of cake. The only difficult thing is the dive before the class to calculate your SAC rate under normal, deco, and extremely stressful situations, so that you can perform accurate gas math planning. Seems like the perfect opportunity to do some awesome guided dives and have a lot of gear fail on exit, at an incredibly expensive rate.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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