DIR- Generic Going down the GUE path vs TDI

[PfcAJ]

Where are you in the world and what dive are you aspiring to that you can't do on your current normoxic ticket and with current (TDI?) buddies

I would love to be able to confirm this, but...
there is at least one who's in way over their head, doesn't actually do the dives, "teaches" by rote.


I wish, but alas the number of people with the experience, training, vacation time, family support, money, gear, willingness, and motivation can be severely limited in some parts of the world.

For caves near me, the JJ with the backmounted 50s does not work at all (RB80 would be even worse choice). You can do the tourist bits on OC, but the exploration/projects require specialized gear. While I have a Kiss, I wouldn't turn someone away just because they were diving a SM liberty or SF2.


1000% agree with this. I wouldn't hand wring over this path at all. The OP may very well (and prudently) decide to spend the next 3 years doing T1 dives and develop a solid OC tech base of 150 normoxic dives before thinking about what next.​

We’re talkin about GUE land. Personal projects have a bit more variability.

 

[Matan]

I see this thread went slightly sideways, so I'm responding to the original post:

1. You already did fundies - you should know the difference between TDI and GUE by now
2. If you liked fundies and think you learned a lot - wait for T1
3. A lot of people did TDI technical training and GUE technical training (like me for example) - there is NO comparison in what you are getting - in fact a lot of the TDI instructors I know where I live - will probably fail fundies.

Regarding the CCR1/T2 discussion - Take T1, do some diving, and than decide - consult your instructor and fellow GUE divers in your local community.

I'm still waiting for my CCR1 class due to COVID (already have a JJ), but did T2 (when it was still the pre-requisite for CCR) - honestly I can't see how anyone can do a 6 day class (CCR2) and get the same OC experience when taking T2 and than doing T2 dives (and T2+ afterwards). T2 is an amazing class - getting more training before doing demanding dives on CCR or OC is not a waste of time/money - it's a path you need to undergo to have enough capacity to do demanding (i.e. deep/long) dives.


P.S: Someone wrote here that if his CCR fails before a CCR2 dive he can still do the dive on OC - this is not a real scenario - the CCR bailout will never have enough gas to do any notable bottom time for a T2 OC dive.

 

[barth]

It will be much easier to get a lot of tech diving experience with a JJ then OC.

I have one buddy who was going to a dive center and did just a few (tech)dives in one week because there was not enough helium available.

Another buddy want to join a week of wreck diving. But it was not possible to do the project oc because it was not possible to bring enough helium to the boat. He couldn’t join the project because of gas logistics.

I did more tech dives in one year with my JJ then in 3 years oc. I had to do 25 dives first without deco and max 30 meters of depth. After that I was allowed to do tech dives. And trips were also canceled because of COVID. Still 40 tech dives in one year.

I was doing a Northsea trip. All the tech 1 divers were doing dives with nitrox max depth 120 feet / 36 meter. I was happy to dive my JJ and trimix...

I agree that experience is important. But for deep dives on a JJ, oc experience is not the only important thing. Enough hours on a JJ is also important. Doing an ascent on a JJ when using bailout is not the same as doing an ascent as oc diver. Even when you’re using a JJ and bailout you’re still a rebreather diver, not an oc diver...

(I’m also wondering how much tech 2 instructors are doing 25 tech 2 dives or more in a year...)

 

[RainPilot]

P.S: Someone wrote here that if his CCR fails before a CCR2 dive he can still do the dive on OC - this is not a real scenario - the CCR bailout will never have enough gas to do any notable bottom time for a T2 OC dive.

They did then clarify that they meant if a serviceable OC set was available. I will always take an OC set with on the boat for a CCR dive if a last minute surface failure will trash a dive that is otherwise on point and can't be delayed. Benefit of diving almost exclusively sidemount on OC is that that means 2x bottom BO and everything else stays the same so no big deal to pop the OC rig on and splash. I also have an OC dive plan in my wet notes for any dive that might meet these criteria.

 

[PfcAJ]

 

[Matan]

They did then clarify that they meant if a serviceable OC set was available. I will always take an OC set with on the boat for a CCR dive if a last minute surface failure will trash a dive that is otherwise on point and can't be delayed. Benefit of diving almost exclusively sidemount on OC is that that means 2x bottom BO and everything else stays the same so no big deal to pop the OC rig on and splash. I also have an OC dive plan in my wet notes for any dive that might meet these criteria.

What?!

when going for a T2+ dive - you will take an extra amount of cylinders/gas equivalent to what is required for the same dive on OC? well I envy you as this is just putting a lot of money (Helium) on redundancy - will never happen here where I live.

Deco Gas is already there in the stages you'll carry either way (CCR/OC) - but the twinset gas (12/65 for example) means you're bringing another set?? that's a TON of helium carrying as spare to leave on the boat.


Matan.

 

[Matan]

It will be much easier to get a lot of tech diving experience with a JJ then OC.

I have one buddy who was going to a dive center and did just a few (tech)dives in one week because there was not enough helium available.

Another buddy want to join a week of wreck diving. But it was not possible to do the project oc because it was not possible to bring enough helium to the boat. He couldn’t join the project because of gas logistics.

I did more tech dives in one year with my JJ then in 3 years oc. I had to do 25 dives first without deco and max 30 meters of depth. After that I was allowed to do tech dives. And trips were also canceled because of COVID. Still 40 tech dives in one year.

I was doing a Northsea trip. All the tech 1 divers were doing dives with nitrox max depth 120 feet / 36 meter. I was happy to dive my JJ and trimix...

I agree that experience is important. But for deep dives on a JJ, oc experience is not the only important thing. Enough hours on a JJ is also important. Doing an ascent on a JJ when using bailout is not the same as doing an ascent as oc diver. Even when you’re using a JJ and bailout you’re still a rebreather diver, not an oc diver...

(I’m also wondering how much tech 2 instructors are doing 25 tech 2 dives or more in a year...)

This is true - with a CCR in your hands you can get much more diving done.
But what about the experience on Bailing out/gas switching/Deco management?

1. You need to be responsible enough to practice this occasionally (yes - spend money and perform OC ascents with real deco).
2. If #1 is kept by the diver - than yes you don't need T2 (in my opinion).
3. if #1 is not kept - than at least being an experienced T2 gives you a better head start (again - in my opinion).

how many CCR divers practice BO with Deco outside of classes? .....


Matan.

 

[RainPilot]

What?!

when going for a T2+ dive - you will take an extra amount of cylinders/gas equivalent to what is required for the same dive on OC? well I envy you as this is just putting a lot of money (Helium) on redundancy - will never happen here where I live.

Deco Gas is already there in the stages you'll carry either way (CCR/OC) - but the twinset gas (12/65 for example) means you're bringing another set?? that's a TON of helium carrying as spare to leave on the boat.


Matan.

It depends, really. I don't dive twinset but side mount, I also have more than one normoxic BO cylinder. All my BO are side mounted anyway, so for example on a 60m dive, I have (depending on runtime) usually a BO of 18/45 plus a 50%. Adding one extra 18/45 on the boat, which is already part of my tank stable anyway, isn't a big deal. Adding an AL40 of O2 also isn't a big deal. Of course, the gas planning isn't QUITE as restrictive, so my CCR buddy still has all their bailout and if I have a lost deco gas etc then I still have options if their CCR is serviceable.

Obviously the bigger dives becomes a lot harder, but for 60m dives I haven't found it to be ridiculously prohibitive to carry an extra stage or two of BO/bottom gas along. Some of the dive ops here also don't charge for BO, only if used, so getting them to put an extra tank or two on the boat isn't a big deal. We usually do anyway, don't like scrubbing a dive because someone left a BO open and the second stage pressing on something left....less than desired in the tank.

Oh, I see your gas example was a hypoxic one, obviously a planned (OC) 6-tank dive is almost impossible to switch from OC to CCR on the fly on the boat and I wouldn't advocate that at all. this was more along the lines of T1 and baby T2 dives.