An age-old question: ways to 60m.

[CG43]

To show how well Germany and CMAS are connected:

Since 2001, the Association of German Sport Divers e.V. (VDST) has been contractually offering selected foreign diving sport organizations and companies the opportunity to also train and issue CMAS dive licenses in Germany through CMAS-Germany. Even back then, the high quality standards of CMAS training were evident.The collaboration between the non-profit (non-commercial) VDST and the commercial organizations was intended to provide diving enthusiasts in Germany with optimal opportunities to pursue their hobby according to CMAS guidelines, whether on vacation, at diving schools, or at home in clubs .

The partners of CMAS-Germany The following diving sports organizations are licensees of CMAS-Germany. They are therefore authorized to provide training according to CMAS rules and to issue certifications through VDST as the licensing authority. The DLRG plays a special role, offering non-commercial sport diving training in addition to rescue diver training.
Here follows a list of 8 organizations in addition to the VDST that I will spare you from here.
In Germany, CMAS has a very good reputation.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

56 m with additional training So with our N3 that includes this additional training, France is not far off with 60 m It is just we had to be a bit different (if not we would not be French hehe)

Concerning this thread I think the other agencies have something to sell. And they are certainly right to say it is safer to use other gas than air to go as far as 60 m but they say it so loud ( they need to sell their training also ) that divers now think that is the only method ! Is it ? Obviously not, not as safe but safe enough in certain conditions, that's what the French federation (and me) thinks...

So I'm genuinely curious, what training does FFESM/CMAS provide that overcomes physiology?

(and I wonder if Dr. Simon Mitchell has seen this thread and thought "Oh God, I'm staying away from this goat rodeo)

 

[Kay Dee]

So I'm genuinely curious, what training does FFESM/CMAS provide that overcomes physiology?

(and I wonder if Dr. Simon Mitchell has seen this thread and thought "Oh God, I'm staying away from this goat rodeo)

I imagine @Dr Simon Mitchell might have better things to do, hopefully like actually diving, than to participate in this perennial back and forth, but who knows maybe he will pop in. I am not sure whether to hold my breath (pun intended) or not though?

 

[iho]

I ll try to stop with tornado as topic starter... Actually initial question was not about "is it worth to dive on air to 60 m." I truly believe in 5.2 g/l limit and not going challenge science with my own ass. Question was about best way to became capable to do 60m. And actually I got answer that between OC and CCR where is well forgotten old good SCR... (Some Draeger units still exists on market) Some sort of compromise between OC helium prices and complexity of CCR. And with (if you have proper hands) option to upgrade to mCCR later... So I might be starting another battle between proper CCR boys (who wants to drive old manual diesel TLC80 in the Tesla age) and couple of still alive SCR guys (actually TLC80 drives pretty well outdoors and does not request anything except diesel) but I think this discussion could be closed - everyone make his own decision about 5.2 g/l

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I imagine @Dr Simon Mitchell might have better things to do, hopefully like actually diving, than to participate in this perennial back and forth, but who knows maybe he will pop in. I am not sure whether to hold my breath (pun intended) or not though?

I was being facetitious. There is no way Dr. Mitchell would get involved with this trainwreck. While I do not speak for him obviously, I believe his focus is providing results of scientific research in ways that people can understand and apply to their own diving.

For those who ignore peer reviewed scientific data, there really is no hope. I have encountered people who thought they understood dive medicine better than Dr. Mitchell. The first time, I was absolutely flummoxed. Now I realize how the average intelligence is orders of magnitude greater than the median intelligence.

 

[lermontov]

but I think this discussion could be closed -

your obviously new here

 

[Blackcrusader]

(who wants to drive old manual diesel TLC80 in the Tesla age) and couple of still alive SCR guys (actually TLC80 drives pretty well outdoors and does not request anything except diesel)

I drive a Ford Ranger Turbo Diesel 3.2L 4x4 which has an 80L fuel tank. Why? I live in the steep mountains in Taiwan. There are no charging stations for electric vehicles. People have driven electric vehicles to find out they consume a lot of power and have had to be put on a tow truck to a city.

Lot's of the trails I drive need proper 4x4 with good ground clearance with low gearing. Let me know when you have an electric vehicle that can do the same. Plus I don't need to worry about batteries frying when driving through rivers and flood waters.

 

[Kay Dee]

I was being facetitious.

I wasn't.

For those who ignore peer reviewed scientific data, there really is no hope.

While I dont disagree with the scientific 'data' by any means, I have seen too much deep air diving up to a certain point (i.e depth) throughout my career 'in the field' to agree that one size fits all. Are the better ways to it (than deep air) though? YOU BET!

I have encountered people who thought they understood dive medicine better than Dr. Mitchell. The first time, I was absolutely flummoxed. Now I realize how the average intelligence is orders of magnitude greater than the median intelligence.

Well maybe now you will be flummoxed again? As I have said many times, while I do not promote deep air diving, I have seen to much of it, and done a reasonable share myself, to agree that one size fits all in every circumstance. And my apologies if that effects your sensibilities and no offense meant.

Note well though: That is not to say I am suggesting anyone to go out and give deep air diving a try, and I am only talking about on OC above, as I would not dream of it, and would strongly advise against it, to even think about deep air on CCR!!!

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I wasn't.

While I dont disagree with the scientific 'data' by any means, I have seen too much deep air diving up to a certain point (i.e depth) throughout my career 'in the field' to agree that one size fits all. Are the better ways to it (than deep air) though? YOU BET!

Your empirical observations (and mine) are statistically insignificant to the volume of data that goes into a scientific study.

Well maybe now you will be flummoxed again?

Nope.

As I have said many times, while I do not promote deep air diving, I have seen to much of it, and done a reasonable share myself, to agree that one size fits all in every circumstance. And my apologies if that effects your sensibilities and no offense meant.

Doesn't affect my sensibility whatsoever. There is no scuba police and people are free to do whatever they wish. I won't deny I have not had a number of hold my beer moments where I came close to being killed (not diving). I was fortunate those two times to have survived.

Note well though: That is not to say I am suggesting anyone to go out and give deep air diving a try, and I am only talking about on OC above, as I would not dream of it, and would strongly advise against it, to even think about deep air on CCR!!!

One medical doctor on here (I won't name him as he probably wants to keep out of this thread though I am certain he has seen it) has stated that Dr. Mitchell's study does apply to OC.

 

[Kay Dee]

Doesn't affect my sensibility whatsoever. There is no scuba police

Well some folks on here seem to think they are (and I do not mean you) it seems.

One medical doctor on here (I won't name him as he probably wants to keep out of this thread though I am certain he has seen it) has stated that Dr. Mitchell's study does apply to OC.

Oh don't misunderstand me, I certainly didnt think OC was 'exempt' as I am aware it has to do with both OC and CCR. I just meant to imply one shouldn't even think about deep air on a CCR. That is, while I would not have once hesitated to do a 60m air dive in the conditions I often dived in, I would sit out / not even think about it if all had was a CCR.

And I when I say I have seen to much of it in the field, I am talking about actual 'working' dives which produced the desired results, i.e. photography, non 'commercial' salvage, body recovery, etc. But I'll also be the first to admit that I have seen more divers narced off their face much much shallower than I have seen doing the above. And on that note I also realise that there is more to it than being narced, o2 limits, etc.

But hey I am NOT trying to changes ANYONE'S mind here, NOR recommending deep air diving, but I am also not going sit idlly by an let some of the stuff I see sprouted on here slide by. Anyway, at the risk of being accused of beating the same same old drum, I will be the first to admit there are better / safer ways to do it than deep air!!!

Adios.