General Vortex Incident Discussion

[Jax]

Am I reading these last pages right?

You shouldn't dive sidemount if you are not going to cave dive. :huh:

 

[shoredivr]

Am I reading these last pages right?

You shouldn't dive sidemount if you are not going to cave dive. :huh:

I guess since this is the cave diving forum, some have that mindset. SM, AFAIK, has its genesis in caves.

But as Dive-aholic noted, SM is a tool that can be used in OW also, which I do.

*bah, sucks to be at sitting at the computer instead of diving the Dunderberg...got blown out of diving Lake Huron today*

 

[Jax]

Thanks, shoredivr. I'm thinking some people are not seeing the great interest in sidemount that is ballooning as people choose other than humping a 100+ pounds around on their back.

 

[Hetland]

Yes, SM cave diving is more complicated than non SM cave diving. It leads to more dangerous passage, you lose one reg and you're stuck feathering your valve the entire exit or losing 1/2 your gas instantly.

So you want to prevent people from training (taking their cave courses) in the configuration they will eventually use to execute those dives? Again, why not just require all noobs carry bleach bottle bc's? That will really keep them out of those dangerous side passages.

Worse than that, the op of my response seems to want to prevent OW divers from using the gear they want for their dives. He's wanting to restrict gear in OW because someone might then think they should take it into a cave.

AJ's comment about being "allowed" to dive doubles is referring to agencies, specifically the NACD, requiring that divers use a single tank with H valve at intro.

To some extent I would agree with this, in that I believe advanced divers should be familiar with different gear configurations BUT....

REQUIRING people to demonstrate skills in a configuration they're not going to use in real life and RESTRICTING them from using the configuration the will use is laughable.

I'm going to train in the gear I'm going to use. Period. If the instructor tells me I need more work because I can't stay off the ceiling, or otherwise safely perform the required skills with that gear then okay, it's time to take another class or practice until I'm able to do as such.

I'm not advocating shortcuts. I took between 2 and 3 MONTHS to complete my basic OW class. Not because I couldn't do the skills, but because I wanted to get the absolute most that I could out of that training, including hours and hours and hours of pool work with the gear I would eventually use in my check out dives.

It's clear from the video that the class didn't help this guy. He couldn't maintain neutral buoyancy. He knew (in his mind) everything he needed to know. The existence of a class or piece of gear was irrelevant. The guy was an accident waiting to happen. No restriction you could put on him or his gear would have changed his behavior.

Oh and dive lights ARE illegal for someone without a cave cert at most every spring state park in FL. AJ and I both have written warnings for it for forgetting to remove backup lights from the harness when diving with OW divers.

While I have serious problems leaving any piece of safety gear behind, I actually agree with this rule.

You must have missed something....this is the cave diving forum. While your post would be great for basic scuba, I have a feeling you're talking about a type of advanced diving you've never done before.

Not an advanced diver, but didn't miss anything. The subject at hand is not "allowing" people to use certain gear because cave divers don't think the reasons given are good enough. This is especially funny because these proposed restrictions would extend to OW, and to divers that have no desire whatsoever to enter any cave at any time for any reason. Essentially, I shouldn't have a dive knife because I might cut myself.

I'm arguing against that. What cert do I need to do that?

A long hose doesn't make you DIR. Its the whole thing. No one dies using these methods, yet all the other stuff does have a body count attached to it. There are way more than 5 people using these methods, btw. All I know is that people are NOT dying from any of it.

I'm not trying to bash the principals. I agree with 99% of the ones I'm familiar with.

I'm saying that you can be a safe diver without being DIR. DIR is not the only path to surviving a dive.

The cave diving community agrees on thirds, 3 lights, a long hose, etc. Its a good thing someone looked at a whole bunch of fatalities and came up with a way to reduce them. Some other folks just took it a step further and kept on looking and learning. Today's fatalities usually involve deep air, solo, sm, rebreathers, skipping training, or some combo thereof. You'll find people who don't believe any of those things killed people, though. It usually gets blamed on a "medical".

Please demonstrate how SM kills people, and give specific examples.

Or paddle a birch-bark canoe before using a kayak? I find both RBs and SM specialised tools that have a purpose, but also increase the complexity of your dive. I think (this is my opinion here, before you think I'm dictating to you) that divers should learn to dive FIRST, then move on to more complicated things (SM, Stage, scooter, whateva).

Again, I agree with most of that. I'm arguing against restricting gear because YOU think I don't need it. If I want to SM in open water with two HP130's, I don't need someone telling me that I will then somehow forget NDL and kill myself, so I shouldn't be allowed. And is SM really rocket science? Is it so hard and complicated that non-tech divers can't possibly understand it? Seems like buoyancy and gas management are the two most important elements in the system (please correct me if I'm wrong). Buoyancy is achieved with practice and patience, gas management only requires a 7th grade education.

Admittedly, I've never dove a RB or SM, but I see significant differences in the complexity and potential danger of the two systems.

And the argument I'm seeing isn't "it's more complicated", the argument I'm seeing is "you don't need it" or "it will allow you to be more stupid than you are already"

Its a lot easier to get out of big cave than it is to get out of small cave. This guy might have had a snowballs chance (better than no chance) of getting out of this cave if he was in larger passage.

A burglar shoots someone and you blame the gun.

Will we ever know? Probably not. I also think that the little intro to cave equipment that he got (since I see SM as a cave specific configuration) gave him just enough knowledge to get hurt.

That's my biggest gripe. SM is not cave specific.

Partial knowledge is a very dangerous thing.

Btw, I have to have a cave card to dive Peacock, Madison, and a few others.

Agreed and reasonable. I don't have any problem whatsoever with cave training. I have a problem with requiring a spearfishing cert to go spearfishing, a camera cert to carry a camera, a doubles cert to dive doubles, drysuit cert to dive drysuits, etc. Soon we'll need a cert to take a wizz in a wetsuit.

You need an intro w/ doubles card to dive doubles at Ginnie.

Stupid. I'll guess that for the low, low price of $200 they will provide you with such a cert?

Its illegal to bring lights into certain parks if you're with OW divers.

Good idea! What will you think when they require an "Underwater Flashlight Management" course for certified cave divers?

They're just trampling my freedom!

With the exception of the lights, they are selling you $#@% and telling you it's gold.

Whenever someone breaks the guideline rule, or thirds, or dives deep on air, the cave community as a whole shakes their head because the info was out there, and the diver chose to ignore it. I feel the same way about all these other causes of death.

guideline violation = brain
rule of thirds = brain
deep air = brain
beyond training = brain

Do something about THOSE issues and I'll give you an ovation, but stop meddling in who is wearing what type of gear, especially in OW. Most of the OW folks who dive SM have said they do so for back and knee issues, not because they want to be mistaken for those bad@$$ cave-masters that the women swoon over.

 

[Jax]

Do something about THOSE issues and I'll give you an ovation, but stop meddling in who is wearing what type of gear, especially in OW. Most of the OW folks who dive SM have said they do so for back and knee issues, not because they want to be mistaken for those bad@$$ cave-masters that the women swoon over.

:spit:

 

[cdolphin]

Amen Hetland - to all of your excellent post above.

As a woman, I gotta say:

Yeah, many women swoon for anything that is dangerous or appears to be. Those are the same women who will go in a cave, untrained, SM or not, with a guy like B.Mc. If we can come up with a class to cure THAT.....

I'm not sure all cave divers are swoon-worthy, frankly. No offense to those of you who oh-most-definitely-are

/Hijack # 199.

 

[Dive-aholic]

RN, this guy had cave ambitions from the get go, from what I understand. Why not teach the basics of cave diving before introducing a more complex and advanced method of diving. I'm willing to bet you a steak dinner that he didn't have some back problem, or a shoulder mobility issue, or whatever the reason dujour is for diving SM

Go back and read my post. Or, actually, here's what I want you to reread -

They want to dive sidemount because they see more advantages to that configuration than disadvantages. They like having the valves and 1st stages where they can see them. They like having completely redundant air sources. They like the stability of the weight along the center of the body rather than high up on the body. Some of them just like not carrying 100+ pounds of steel on their backs! Sidemount diving is not about going into small spaces.

Doing things without a reason is never smart in my book. And most of the reasons for wanting to dive SM in OW are bs, as far as I'm concerned. Its analogous to rebreather for a new diver, to me. Learn to cave dive, then lets learn the specialized stuff. Hell, we were all debating if intro divers should be allowed to dive doubles, and yet here we are giving the tools to brand spakin new (potential) cave divers a tool to get not only far, but in small, unforgiving cave.[

That's where we disagree. I would much rather have a student come into a cavern class in doubles or sidemount. And I haven't taught an Intro course to someone in a single tank, and likely never will. I've seen enough extruded neck o-rings to convince me a single tank in an overhead is not smart. Why preach redundancy if you're going to allow something that important to not have a redundant back up??

BUT at face value it appears that the deceased took an OW sidemount course as a "shortcut" - sorta a cave-lite kinda thing minus the buoyancy and trim and other real skills. A course where he was introduced to just enough techy stuff to make him more dangerous. Although he could have just as easily done "intro to doubles", at least then Edd would be looking in bigger passages for his body and we wouldn't be wondering if he was buried in some no-mount tunnel by silt.

A sidemount course should include buoyancy and trim.

The diver that died in Telford and wasn't found for 5.5 years was diving doubles...

Yes, SM cave diving is more complicated than non SM cave diving. It leads to more dangerous passage, you lose one reg and you're stuck feathering your valve the entire exit or losing 1/2 your gas instantly.

But cave diving in SM is no different other than a couple of reg switches and an extra SPG...

You shouldn't dive sidemount if you are not going to cave dive.

I guess that means I can't dive sidemount on/in the Oriskany in a couple of weeks??

 

[irishsquid]

Thanks, shoredivr. I'm thinking some people are not seeing the great interest in sidemount that is ballooning as people choose other than humping a 100+ pounds around on their back.

Due to my recent episode with another pulled back muscle, I'm starting to think SM is a better option than doubles. I don't cave dive and really couldn't care less what anyone thinks of my choice. I don't dive for or need their approval. I admire the cave divers I know (and none of them, I would venture to say, would have anything negative to say about that choice if made) and someday I may follow their path, with proper training for sure. The lack of "need" (as determined by anyone but myself) for particular gear or the assumption that having that gear will push a person to use it in a stupid manner just doesn't fly with me. The push will come from a lack of or misfiring of brain cells, and that can happen anywhere, anytime, with anything. JMO

 

[Jax]

Am I reading these last pages right?

You shouldn't dive sidemount if you are not going to cave dive. :huh:

I guess that means I can't dive sidemount on/in the Oriskany in a couple of weeks??

Yeah, that seemed like the message I was getting! Good thing I think for myself!

 

[Docc]

And most of the reasons for wanting to dive SM in OW are bs, as far as I'm concerned.

I disagree. I prefer SM to BM. I'm only cavern certified and was cavern certified in BM because that's what my instructor of choice mandated. Other than that class, I've been diving almost 100% SM and that includes OW in Cozumel, Playa, Jamaica, and Bonaire. We dove exclusively SM in Bonaire including a deep dive with penetration on the Mari Bahn (Windjammer) wreck. I trim better in SM than BM, I love having all stages and spgs at my fingertips and if I prefer it when somewhere other than an OH environment, why is that BS? Why do you you care what I dive? Unless you and I are diving as a team...my gear configuration really isn't any of your concern.

I guess that means I can't dive sidemount on/in the Oriskany in a couple of weeks??

We dove SM on the Oriskany with scooters and had a blast. SM makes a much more streamlined profile for scootering which is why I love it. It's fun playing dodge the barracuda while skimming the flight deck on an X scooter.