General Vortex Incident Discussion

[scubaguy655]

So here is a question for the masses...

This incident has opened the eyes of a lot of readers to the dangers and unforgiving nature of cave diving without proper training. Many of you are seeing for the first time some example of how badly things can quickly go wrong.

If this turns out to be a hoax, misunderstanding, whatever and it turns out for a fact that he is not in the cave after all, will that soften your perception?

I have read every post in this thread and the ones before it. I have had nothing to say because I am not a cave diver nor an expert on Vortex - however, in answer to your question - No

If anything, following this issue has made me respect cave diving on a whole new level as well as a better appreciation of not diving anything beyond your training - cave or otherwise.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Have you tried spearfishing with SM? Seems like it would be difficult. How about regular fin kicks? I'm heading in the tech direction, but think doubles would fit my lifestyle better (spearing, photography, wanna-be wreck penetration). I also think SM looks dorky

If it's "better" though, I'd just as soon look dorky(er), learn SM and skip the extra time and expense of doubles. I'm attracted to not carrying 90 pounds of metal on my back and having full access to my 1st stages and valves too.

It's nice to have someone experienced to ask. I'd hate to be lectured on how I'm going to kill myself because I have 160cf of gas at my disposal instead of 80 or 100

Flutter kicking is as easy in SM, never tried spearfishing in SM...

There's reasons for either configuration, neither is better, BM may be perfectly fine for you. I certainly think on a rocking boat, if there's a good ladder and a walk through transom, doubles is a bit less hassle. If you have to clobber over the side of things, SM can make life easier off a boat.

BTW, you'll want to get that frog kick down for wreck penetration too.

 

[Divedoggie]

My fear is that PADI is letting OW divers teach SM. Looking at this guy in the water, he has some issues, so it makes me wonder if perhaps the OW instructor wasn't experienced enough to be teaching SM (perhaps not a cave diver even?). Also with OW instructors having a history of diving in caves with over confidence, maybe this was pot teaching the kettle?

IMO this guy wasn't going to learn much from anyone, whether they were good Instructors or not. He seemed to collect just enough info to be dangerous. He inquired about cave courses and balked at the price. He pushed for a job as a DM but hadn't completed training. One shop and Instructor wouldn't train him based on attitude. So, if someone was pegged as his SM Instructor, you couldn't blame that Instructor for the the final product which we witnessed on Deepswim's video.

As far as I know, there are very few PADI Instructors certified to be teaching PADI sidemount. The Great American Diving Company Blog: PADI Sidemount Courses Offers Alternate Equipment Configuration

The missing diver was SSI certified, or at least was working on his SSI DiveCon cert.

I suspect the point is that qualified rec Instructors ought to teach rec and leave it for the tech Instructors to teach tech. Statistics say that rec Instructors in particular ought to stay out of caves!
All points with which, as a rec Instructor, I totally agree.

 

[Dive-aholic]

What was the reason for taking an OW sidemount course again? I know he wanted to, but WHY did he want to, is my question.

What does it matter?? I teach a lot of "OW Sidemount courses". It's only called "OW Sidemount" to differentiate it from advanced sidemount cave courses. I also teach a course called "Twinset Diving". In fact, I'm teaching it at the end of this month. If he had taken a "Twinset" course instead of a sidemount course would you be asking this question? Would it make a difference if it was called "Basic Sidemount" or "Intro to Sidemount" or "Essentials of Sidemount" instead of "OW Sidemount"? The OW Sidemount course focuses on how to get rigs streamlined and trimmed, how to manage air between the 2 cylinders, and how to deal with OOAs. Just like the Twinset course, it helps divers get from dive 1 in the rig to dive 40 or 50 in only 4 dives, if taught correctly. Sure, some divers just get out there and dive and learn through trial and error. Some divers would rather pay an instructor to get them through that process in a couple of days. Most of my sidemount students are interested in pursuing cave diving training in the future. Most of them have either already completed a cavern course or have one scheduled. I did have a Canadian wreck diver come down to learn sidemount last year. Most of them have no interest in diving small passage. They want to dive sidemount because they see more advantages to that configuration than disadvantages. They like having the valves and 1st stages where they can see them. They like having completely redundant air sources. They like the stability of the weight along the center of the body rather than high up on the body. Some of them just like not carrying 100+ pounds of steel on their backs! Sidemount diving is not about going into small spaces. It is just a different gear configuration that the growing older generation of divers is finding very appealing! Step out of your box of sidemount is only for small passage and look at all of the values of the configuration.

 

[techintime]

we can't call a stroke a stroke either. that's what this guy was (is?).

I really wish that the DIR community (of which I am a new member) would dump the term "stroke" or at least modify it to cover something less than the 99% of divers that are not DIR. All it does is piss people off and probably impedes the cause.

By the definition (stroke = anything less than 100% DIR). Therefore, Ben was a stroke even if he had never gone into a cave or never broke a commonly accepted rule. By the DIR definition, even a well trained, well equipped, competent, recreational diver with a jacket BC who has never broken a rule or dived beyond his training...is labeled with that pejorative term of being a "stroke". In my book it doesn't make sense to lump the competent (non-DIR) recreational diver in with this kind of bufoonery.

Stroke-test

quote at the end of the test..."And BTW... To be DIR means that you have to be all the way DIR, not just half the way. There is really no such thing as "xx % DIR". Only DIR, or stroke."

 

[PfcAJ]

I really wish that the DIR community (of which I am a new member) would dump the term "stroke" or at least modify it to cover something less than the 99% of divers that are not DIR. All it does is piss people off and probably impedes the cause.

By the definition (stroke = anything less than 100% DIR). Therefore, Ben was a stroke even if he had never gone into a cave or never broke a commonly accepted rule. By the DIR definition, even a well trained, well equipped, competent, recreational diver with a jacket BC who has never broken a rule or dived beyond his training...is labeled with that pejorative term of being a "stroke". In my book it doesn't make sense to lump the competent (non-DIR) recreational diver in with this kind of bufoonery.

Stroke-test

quote at the end of the test..."And BTW... To be DIR means that you have to be all the way DIR, not just half the way. There is really no such thing as "xx % DIR". Only DIR, or stroke."

Like it or not, I can only think of one fatality EVER of someone who dives DIR. It just doesn't happen. The same cannot be said for other diving practices.

Can you be safe if you're not DIR? Sure. As safe? I don't think so. People get so riled up over a silly word.

RN, this guy had cave ambitions from the get go, from what I understand. Why not teach the basics of cave diving before introducing a more complex and advanced method of diving. I'm willing to bet you a steak dinner that he didn't have some back problem, or a shoulder mobility issue, or whatever the reason dujour is for diving SM

Doing things without a reason is never smart in my book. And most of the reasons for wanting to dive SM in OW are bs, as far as I'm concerned. Its analogous to rebreather for a new diver, to me. Learn to cave dive, then lets learn the specialized stuff. Hell, we were all debating if intro divers should be allowed to dive doubles, and yet here we are giving the tools to brand spakin new (potential) cave divers a tool to get not only far, but in small, unforgiving cave.

I guess time will tell (or has it...).

 

[Jax]

Perfect! Quite Perfect!

What does it matter?? I teach a lot of "OW Sidemount courses". It's only called "OW Sidemount" to differentiate it from advanced sidemount cave courses. I also teach a course called "Twinset Diving". In fact, I'm teaching it at the end of this month. If he had taken a "Twinset" course instead of a sidemount course would you be asking this question? Would it make a difference if it was called "Basic Sidemount" or "Intro to Sidemount" or "Essentials of Sidemount" instead of "OW Sidemount"? The OW Sidemount course focuses on how to get rigs streamlined and trimmed, how to manage air between the 2 cylinders, and how to deal with OOAs. Just like the Twinset course, it helps divers get from dive 1 in the rig to dive 40 or 50 in only 4 dives, if taught correctly. Sure, some divers just get out there and dive and learn through trial and error. Some divers would rather pay an instructor to get them through that process in a couple of days. Most of my sidemount students are interested in pursuing cave diving training in the future. Most of them have either already completed a cavern course or have one scheduled. I did have a Canadian wreck diver come down to learn sidemount last year. Most of them have no interest in diving small passage. They want to dive sidemount because they see more advantages to that configuration than disadvantages. They like having the valves and 1st stages where they can see them. They like having completely redundant air sources. They like the stability of the weight along the center of the body rather than high up on the body. Some of them just like not carrying 100+ pounds of steel on their backs! Sidemount diving is not about going into small spaces. It is just a different gear configuration that the growing older generation of divers is finding very appealing! Step out of your box of sidemount is only for small passage and look at all of the values of the configuration.

 

[diverdoug1]

Holy Moley! It will take Quero HOURS to delete all these stroke comments!

Here is the one I got

Hi Doug,

I'm writing to let you know that your post

---Quote---
Can you say STROKE?
---End Quote---
in the thread General Vortex Incident Discussion has been deleted as a TOS violation prohibiting name calling.

Marcia
SB Moderator

 

[lamont]

I really wish that the DIR community (of which I am a new member) would dump the term "stroke" or at least modify it to cover something less than the 99% of divers that are not DIR. All it does is piss people off and probably impedes the cause.

By the definition (stroke = anything less than 100% DIR). Therefore, Ben was a stroke even if he had never gone into a cave or never broke a commonly accepted rule. By the DIR definition, even a well trained, well equipped, competent, recreational diver with a jacket BC who has never broken a rule or dived beyond his training...is labeled with that pejorative term of being a "stroke". In my book it doesn't make sense to lump the competent (non-DIR) recreational diver in with this kind of bufoonery.

Stroke-test

quote at the end of the test..."And BTW... To be DIR means that you have to be all the way DIR, not just half the way. There is really no such thing as "xx % DIR". Only DIR, or stroke."

Strokes are ego-stroking cave divers that are unsafe and full of themselves. It is a term that existed before George and before the term 'DIR', so it can't mean "divers that are not 100% DIR"

And Halcyon, GUE and UTD have not only distanced themselves from the term 'stroke' but from the term 'DIR' as well ('DIR' no longer on Halcyon gear, DIRF is now GUEF, UTD was invented by Lynne as an alternative to 'DIR').

So, you're having an argument which was last relevant sometime in 2004, and the only person trying to keep it alive as the meaning that you attribute to it... is you.

 

[Hetland]

Like it or not, I can only think of one fatality EVER of someone who dives DIR. It just doesn't happen. The same cannot be said for other diving practices.

So what is that percentage wise? When there's five people on the planet that are 100% dir, and one of them dies, that's a 20% fatality rate.

Can you be safe if you're not DIR? Sure. As safe? I don't think so.

BS. Thousands of people dive every day and don't die or get hurt. How many of them are DIR? Are they REALLY LESS SAFE because their hose is less than 7' long? No, they just have a different set of options available to them. Not everyone who dives does it in an overhead environment.

RN, this guy had cave ambitions from the get go, from what I understand. Why not teach the basics of cave diving before introducing a more complex and advanced method of diving.

Sidemount is more complex and advanced than cave diving?

Please list all the courses and skills that should be reserved for elite cave-diving DIR practitioners. I want to make sure I don't learn something that might kill me.

I'm willing to bet you a steak dinner that he didn't have some back problem, or a shoulder mobility issue, or whatever the reason dujour is for diving SM

Because if someone wants to improve themselves or try something different, they need a reason that you agree with first.

Doing things without a reason is never smart in my book. And most of the reasons for wanting to dive SM in OW are bs, as far as I'm concerned.

Are you less than 35 years old? If so, wait a few more years and you can tell us about how you can still run as fast, jump as high, and drink as much beer as you did when you were 18. Also, is there a number we can call to check with you before we take a class?

Its analogous to rebreather for a new diver, to me.

Big difference between rebreathers and sidemount.

Learn to cave dive, then lets learn the specialized stuff.

Maybe someone wants to learn to dive sidemount so they can take the cave classes in the gear they intend to use. Should you be required to use a horse-collar bc for OW, or can you use a modern system?

Hell, we were all debating if intro divers should be allowed to dive doubles.

Allowed? Thanks for allowing us to use the gear we want.

and yet here we are giving the tools to brand spakin new (potential) cave divers a tool to get not only far, but in small, unforgiving cave.

Aren't big, short caves unforgiving too? Divers were killing themselves in caves before either of us were born. Do you really think the gear made absolutely any difference at all in this incident? If that's the case you should just make dive lights illegal for anyone lacking a cave cert. I mean really, if you can't see where you're going, you won't go there.

Really the elitist attitude turns people off. This isn't a contest for most of us. If you want divers to get the training and mentoring they need to be safer divers, you have to make those things attractive. You have to be open and inclusive. Restricting certain gear configurations because YOU don't think someone should be diving it is.... Well, I'll just say it's not very nice