General Vortex Incident Discussion

[rjack321]

What does it matter??

I actually agree with you.

BUT at face value it appears that the deceased took an OW sidemount course as a "shortcut" - sorta a cave-lite kinda thing minus the buoyancy and trim and other real skills. A course where he was introduced to just enough techy stuff to make him more dangerous. Although he could have just as easily done "intro to doubles", at least then Edd would be looking in bigger passages for his body and we wouldn't be wondering if he was buried in some no-mount tunnel by silt.

But yes I do agree with you regardless of gear he was gonna get in way over his head in Vortex.

 

[techintime]

So, you're having an argument which was last relevant sometime in 2004, and the only person trying to keep it alive as the meaning that you attribute to it... is you.

Dude,
I know that some are ditching the term and that some use the term as you describe, but to say that the strict definition of the term died in 2004 simply isn't true. PS: why the rudeness? In person, you are probably a nice guy and if you and I were face to face I bet that we would have a friendly conversation on this subject. But for some people (apparently you are one of them), putting a computer between them and the other half of the conversation generates the need to be rude. I have never understood that.

 

[ucfdiver]

So what is that percentage wise? When there's five people on the planet that are 100% dir, and one of them dies, that's a 20% fatality rate.



BS. Thousands of people dive every day and don't die or get hurt. How many of them are DIR? Are they REALLY LESS SAFE because their hose is less than 7' long? No, they just have a different set of options available to them. Not everyone who dives does it in an overhead environment.



Sidemount is more complex and advanced than cave diving?

Please list all the courses and skills that should be reserved for elite cave-diving DIR practitioners. I want to make sure I don't learn something that might kill me.



Because if someone wants to improve themselves or try something different, they need a reason that you agree with first.



Are you less than 35 years old? If so, wait a few more years and you can tell us about how you can still run as fast, jump as high, and drink as much beer as you did when you were 18. Also, is there a number we can call to check with you before we take a class?



Big difference between rebreathers and sidemount.



Maybe someone wants to learn to dive sidemount so they can take the cave classes in the gear they intend to use. Should you be required to use a horse-collar bc for OW, or can you use a modern system?



Allowed? Thanks for allowing us to use the gear we want.



Aren't big, short caves unforgiving too? Divers were killing themselves in caves before either of us were born. Do you really think the gear made absolutely any difference at all in this incident? If that's the case you should just make dive lights illegal for anyone lacking a cave cert. I mean really, if you can't see where you're going, you won't go there.

Really the elitist attitude turns people off. This isn't a contest for most of us. If you want divers to get the training and mentoring they need to be safer divers, you have to make those things attractive. You have to be open and inclusive. Restricting certain gear configurations because YOU don't think someone should be diving it is.... Well, I'll just say it's not very nice

Like it or not, DIR holds EOL at the biggest cave in FL. Sure, Wakulla is closed access, but much of the Leon sinks isn't, and no one is pushing any leads. Why? It's crappy viz, large cave, old line, deep, etc. We're not talking about a 30ft reef dive looking at fishies.

Yes, SM cave diving is more complicated than non SM cave diving. It leads to more dangerous passage, you lose one reg and you're stuck feathering your valve the entire exit or losing 1/2 your gas instantly.

AJ's comment about being "allowed" to dive doubles is referring to agencies, specifically the NACD, requiring that divers use a single tank with H valve at intro.

Oh and dive lights ARE illegal for someone without a cave cert at most every spring state park in FL. AJ and I both have written warnings for it for forgetting to remove backup lights from the harness when diving with OW divers.

You must have missed something....this is the cave diving forum. While your post would be great for basic scuba, I have a feeling you're talking about a type of advanced diving you've never done before.

 

[PfcAJ]

So what is that percentage wise? When there's five people on the planet that are 100% dir, and one of them dies, that's a 20% fatality rate.



BS. Thousands of people dive every day and don't die or get hurt. How many of them are DIR? Are they REALLY LESS SAFE because their hose is less than 7' long? No, they just have a different set of options available to them. Not everyone who dives does it in an overhead environment.

A long hose doesn't make you DIR. Its the whole thing. No one dies using these methods, yet all the other stuff does have a body count attached to it. There are way more than 5 people using these methods, btw. All I know is that people are NOT dying from any of it.

Sidemount is more complex and advanced than cave diving?

Please list all the courses and skills that should be reserved for elite cave-diving DIR practitioners. I want to make sure I don't learn something that might kill me.



Because if someone wants to improve themselves or try something different, they need a reason that you agree with first.

The cave diving community agrees on thirds, 3 lights, a long hose, etc. Its a good thing someone looked at a whole bunch of fatalities and came up with a way to reduce them. Some other folks just took it a step further and kept on looking and learning. Today's fatalities usually involve deep air, solo, sm, rebreathers, skipping training, or some combo thereof. You'll find people who don't believe any of those things killed people, though. It usually gets blamed on a "medical".

Are you less than 35 years old? If so, wait a few more years and you can tell us about how you can still run as fast, jump as high, and drink as much beer as you did when you were 18. Also, is there a number we can call to check with you before we take a class?

Yup, I am. Send me an email, I'm often busy and miss calls.

Big difference between rebreathers and sidemount.



Maybe someone wants to learn to dive sidemount so they can take the cave classes in the gear they intend to use. Should you be required to use a horse-collar bc for OW, or can you use a modern system?

Or paddle a birch-bark canoe before using a kayak? I find both RBs and SM specialised tools that have a purpose, but also increase the complexity of your dive. I think (this is my opinion here, before you think I'm dictating to you) that divers should learn to dive FIRST, then move on to more complicated things (SM, Stage, scooter, whateva).

Allowed? Thanks for allowing us to use the gear we want.



Aren't big, short caves unforgiving too? Divers were killing themselves in caves before either of us were born. Do you really think the gear made absolutely any difference at all in this incident? If that's the case you should just make dive lights illegal for anyone lacking a cave cert. I mean really, if you can't see where you're going, you won't go there.

Its a lot easier to get out of big cave than it is to get out of small cave. This guy might have had a snowballs chance (better than no chance) of getting out of this cave if he was in larger passage. Will we ever know? Probably not. I also think that the little intro to cave equipment that he got (since I see SM as a cave specific configuration) gave him just enough knowledge to get hurt. Partial knowledge is a very dangerous thing.

Btw, I have to have a cave card to dive Peacock, Madison, and a few others. You need an intro w/ doubles card to dive doubles at Ginnie. Its illegal to bring lights into certain parks if you're with OW divers. They're just trampling my freedom!

Really the elitist attitude turns people off. This isn't a contest for most of us. If you want divers to get the training and mentoring they need to be safer divers, you have to make those things attractive. You have to be open and inclusive. Restricting certain gear configurations because YOU don't think someone should be diving it is.... Well, I'll just say it's not very nice

Unfortunately, people will continue to die and get hurt, regardless of who's nice to who and who gets warm and fuzzies from other people. Whenever someone breaks the guideline rule, or thirds, or dives deep on air, the cave community as a whole shakes their head because the info was out there, and the diver chose to ignore it. I feel the same way about all these other causes of death.

 

[Cave Diver]

Holy Moley! It will take Quero HOURS to delete all these stroke comments!

Here is the one I got

Hi Doug,

I'm writing to let you know that your post

---Quote---
Can you say STROKE?
---End Quote---
in the thread General Vortex Incident Discussion has been deleted as a TOS violation prohibiting name calling.

Marcia
SB Moderator

If you're going to post a PM about a deleted comment, why dont you be fair about it and point out that your posting it in LARGE RED FONT seemed to be nothing more than an attempt to incite people. I would have deleted it myself if I wasn't already involved in the conversation.

Now, how about we knock off the stupid **** and get back to the discussion shall we?

 

[Cave Diver]

I really wish that the DIR community (of which I am a new member) would dump the term "stroke" or at least modify it to cover something less than the 99% of divers that are not DIR. All it does is piss people off and probably impedes the cause.

By the definition (stroke = anything less than 100% DIR). Therefore, Ben was a stroke even if he had never gone into a cave or never broke a commonly accepted rule. By the DIR definition, even a well trained, well equipped, competent, recreational diver with a jacket BC who has never broken a rule or dived beyond his training...is labeled with that pejorative term of being a "stroke". In my book it doesn't make sense to lump the competent (non-DIR) recreational diver in with this kind of bufoonery.

Stroke-test

quote at the end of the test..."And BTW... To be DIR means that you have to be all the way DIR, not just half the way. There is really no such thing as "xx % DIR". Only DIR, or stroke."

Dude,
I know that some are ditching the term and that some use the term as you describe, but to say that the strict definition of the term died in 2004 simply isn't true. PS: why the rudeness? In person, you are probably a nice guy and if you and I were face to face I bet that we would have a friendly conversation on this subject. But for some people (apparently you are one of them), putting a computer between them and the other half of the conversation generates the need to be rude. I have never understood that.

I don't see anything on that page that makes them the definitive source for defining the term. Most of the definitions I've seen revolve around divers with an unsafe mindset rather than "being 100% DIR."

Since you seem to have the definitions and history down pat, how about some qualifying background so we know why anyone here should listen to your sermon about it?

 

[bigken462]

I've had this thread on ignore more times that I did with my wife when I was married. Usually only last for a few hours. Grrr.

This thread as a whole has taken more tangent twist than any heated debate on TDS. Any recall the Tahoe Bench tests threads? You would have to have a navigational track to keep up with it. Accident wise, its surpasses both the Eagles Nest fatality thread (624 post) and the double fatality at Waynes world (351 post) But the real kicker is that with Cavedivers post @ 166 is equals to the amount of the top four DIR threads all together. This tells ya right off that the old DIR arguments are nil to none compared with the thoughts of divers at the present time. Ok, maybe not nil to none, but for sure stuff like DIR, and calling people Strokes were gone with the wind several years ago. No use in pullin up bones.
Ken

 

[Tortuga68]

A long hose doesn't make you DIR. Its the whole thing. No one dies using these methods, yet all the other stuff does have a body count attached to it. There are way more than 5 people using these methods, btw. All I know is that people are NOT dying from any of it

IMO the point missing from these arguments is whether DIR equipment or training would have saved the people who died. There's a thread in A&I at the moment where it sounds like the likely cause of death may well have been going OOA due to failure to monitor gas and/or time. The best training and equipment in the world is useless if you forget to use it

 

[lamont]

Dude,
I know that some are ditching the term and that some use the term as you describe, but to say that the strict definition of the term died in 2004 simply isn't true. PS: why the rudeness? In person, you are probably a nice guy and if you and I were face to face I bet that we would have a friendly conversation on this subject. But for some people (apparently you are one of them), putting a computer between them and the other half of the conversation generates the need to be rude. I have never understood that.

I think you need to re-read the post you made and take a little bit of your own medicine.

 

[lamont]

A long hose doesn't make you DIR. Its the whole thing. No one dies using these methods, yet all the other stuff does have a body count attached to it. There are way more than 5 people using these methods, btw. All I know is that people are NOT dying from any of it.

I believe the double-fatality in Calimba was actually fundies-trained divers.

Of course you could argue since they didn't have GUE cave training that doesn't count...

On a long enough timeline, though, with enough students, I'm certain that once students leave GUE courses some of them are going to wind up making bad decisions.

And when you look at the accidents they don't really have that much to do with agency affiliation, its all the same violations of the rules that Exley put down decades ago now.